[p2p-research] Request: Peer to Peer and Human Evolution

Wed Feb 24 09:19:57 CET 2010

I think you should not worry about that, you make yourself very clearly
understood on this list!

2010/2/24 Mázsa Péter <peter.mazsa at gmail.com>

> Hi Michael,
>
> thank you for the opportunity, it's a perfect solution:) I'll start it
> on sunday.
> I have just one concern: my language skills are not that great:(
>
> Peter
>
> 2010/2/23 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
> > Peter,
> >
> > if you want to launch your project, under your control, the section
> should
> > be on the right hand side under individual projects,
> >
> > see:
> >
> >
> > Individual Projects
> >
> > Adam Arvidsson's Ethical Economy
> > Michel Bauwens' Chiang Mai Commons‎ project
> > Christian Siefkes' Peer Economy
> >
> >
> > if you want to make it more sexy, we can replace the box at the top right
> > where it now says open hardware directory,
> >
> > however, we would  only do this once your project has enough 'meat' to
> > justify it,
> > 2010/2/23 Mázsa Péter <peter.mazsa at gmail.com>
> >>
> >> 2010/2/22 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
> >> >> > I'm still of two minds regarding internet taxation, but first hand,
> I
> >> >> > don't
> >> >> > see why internet companies should be excempted from contributing to
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > public good.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Of course, our communication should not be taxed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> not exempt at all: companies (our companies, run on the new
> >> >> jurisdictions) should pay taxes, but the tax-level and
> tax-composition
> >> >> should be set by tax-competition of the jurisdictions. This is why I
> >> >> expect that taxes for intangibles will be somewhere between
> >> >> https://www.paypal.com/fees and 5%. Not without predecessors:), e.g.
> >> >> http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/images/WM1628-chart1-lg.jpg
> >> >
> >> > do I understand you correctly that you are suggesting to pay moderate
> >> > taxes
> >> > to non-state jurisdictions?, say like a tax that would go 'directly'
> to
> >> > musicians?
> >>
> >> 2010/2/23 Kevin Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com>:
> >> > As an anarchist, I can't say I'm in favor of taxation of any kind.
> >>
> >>
> >> @Michael yes: consumers of intangibles should have the opportunity (!
> >> @Kevin) to pay taxes (moderated by tax-competition) to online
> >> jurisdictions where they (as online-jurisdiction-citizens) have the
> >> opportunity to control online & constitutionally the outgoing of
> >> taxes.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2010/2/22 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
> >> >> of course we are intended to contribute to the public good, but 1. we
> >> >> define public good through another form of participation/organization
> >> >> than the state 2. in a reasonable measure.
> >> >
> >> > I agree that the notion of the public good can be divorced from the
> >> > notion
> >> > of the state; ;what matters to me is to recognize a sphere that is
> >> > beyond
> >> > the interests of even p2p groups, i.e. the field in which we all
> >> > operate;
> >> > from corporate experience, I do not believe in exclusive
> self-regulation
> >> > and
> >> > pure private contractual agreements, contrary to thatcher, I do
> believe
> >> > that
> >> > 'society really exists'
> >>
> >>
> >> I agree: I do not believe exclusive self-regulation either. But some
> >> people do. I think what we should stand for is the Greatest Common
> >> Divisor:
> >> - that we must create e-cash,
> >> - that we should have the opportunity to pay taxes and avoid double
> >> taxation by states,
> >> - that we should have the infrastructure to spend our taxes by means
> >> of our participation, and
> >> - that we should have an ethical basis in the form of a firm
> >> conception of sustainable creativity.
> >>
> >> We should find our allies, e.g.:
> >> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party
> >> who else?
> >> and make public that we have this Greatest Common Divisor as a
> >> strategy (we should find such kind of allies who accept this a a
> >> common strategy).
> >>
> >>
> >> 2010/2/23 Kevin Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com>:
> >> > OTOH, one of the benefits of the emerging network society is its
> >> > opacity to the state, and its ability to function outside the
> >> > regulatory framework that creates artificial scarcity.  I see a
> >> > darknet economy of networked, encrypted currency transactions, in
> >> > which patents and copyrights are ignored, and with its own
> >> > certification and authenticating mechanisms, as the basis for the
> >> > post-state society.
> >>
> >>
> >> yes; but I want to make it proud, with the opportunity to
> >> - sustain creativity, and
> >> - contribute to common causes.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2010/2/22 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
> >> >> > you are of course right that the state (and corporate) institutions
> >> >> > are
> >> >> > largely unreformable, but intense pressure from successfull social
> >> >> > alternatives (p2p ones), can drive the change towards more
> >> >> > participatory
> >> >> > government
> >> >>
> >> >> I completely agree with you: we want successful p2p alternatives and
> >> >> more participatory governments. So we have a common vision.
> >> >>
> >> >> What about the strategy? I think (and this, of course, is subjective)
> >> >> that the direct pressure on governments by however successful p2p
> >> >> exemplars is 1. quite provocative towards the states, while at the
> >> >> same time 2. not enough for significant change, or, at least, not
> >> >> enough for change in due time, because do not change the rule of the
> >> >> game.
> >> >
> >> > I think the issue is that there will be different interlocking time
> >> > scales
> >> > at work; on the one hand there is the slow but steady buildup of
> >> > alternative
> >> > p2p modalities by many actors, that are quite strong, but still
> >> > emergent; on
> >> > the other hand, the possible dislocation of the current system (which
> in
> >> > my
> >> > view is not a certainty, I believe we still have a half-kondratieff
> wave
> >> > to
> >> > go before the collapse), or at the very least the current imbalances
> >> > after
> >> > the meltdown, will create the basis for social unrest; what is
> important
> >> > is
> >> > that factor 1, can keep enough pace with factor 2, so that social
> forces
> >> > can
> >> > see a believable alternative; but one and two can work in concert, I
> >> > believe
> >> > peer production can ally itself with the forces for active political
> and
> >> > social change; they both need each other
> >>
> >>
> >> We think the same about what we should do, we differ in what we dare to
> >> hope
> >>
> >>
> >> >> What we need is more what you characterize as the "dissociation of
> >> >> markets" from the states.
> >> >
> >> > what I really want is different commons, different markets, different
> >> > state
> >> > approaches ... I think unregulated corporate markets are dangerous, as
> >> > we
> >> > have seen in 2008; and I don't see how you can have different markets
> >> > without also tackling the state issue (i.e. smarter regulation,
> >> > participatory policy making)
> >>
> >> Yes!!:)
> >>
> >> >> I think we are at the corner of an Edgeworth box
> >> >> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~alandear/glossary/figs/Box/box.html<http://www-personal.umich.edu/%7Ealandear/glossary/figs/Box/box.html>of
> >> >> the states and the p2p orgs: we are at equilibrium with them, but
> >> >> states & their corporations endowed immensely compared to p2ps. If we
> >> >> follow the rules of the states, we can move towards the center of the
> >> >> box merely infinitesimally. If we want to shift the proportions of
> >> >> production significantly, we should reallocate the factors and/or
> >> >> endowments, i.e., in case of states, the taxes. Of course, states
> >> >> won't be nice to us, but at the end of the day(?:), a more balanced
> >> >> equilibrium will work out, in the near of the center of the box.
> >> >
> >> > I think the 'meanness' of states depend on many factors; why was jesus
> >> > killed but not the buddha? two radical messages, but one was not
> >> > perceived
> >> > as a threat .. I think smart p2p projects can position themselves not
> as
> >> > enemies of states and markets, but as hyperproductive solutions to
> >> > difficult
> >> > problems, in such a way that the temptation to 'meanness' can be
> avoided
> >> > to
> >> > the maximum
> >>
> >>
> >> give it a try:)
> >>
> >>
> >> > I agree that new tax practices and tax hacks are necessary .. perhaps
> we
> >> > could find a term akin to monetary transformation, that shows the
> >> > necessity
> >> > for radical new approaches to taxation?
> >> >
> >> >> Wiki: very good idea, i'd like to participate:) What about the label
> >> >> '/taxhack' for the wiki? As for your main topic, commons would be 1
> of
> >> >> the 3 main strategic areas:
> >> >> - infrastructure for e-cash and taxation (of transactions, probably)
> >> >> (Vision: autonomous monetary system)
> >> >> - infrastructure for participation (Vision: online political units
> >> >> worthy of our love and loyalty)
> >> >> - general theory of commons and rewards (Vision: maximum sustainable
> >> >> creativity)
> >> >>  What do you think?
> >> >
> >> > the form it takes in the mediawiki is Category:Taxation, but this can
> be
> >> > disguised behind a more popular meme .. I'm  not so fond of taxhacks
> but
> >> > if
> >> > we find nothing better, it will have to do <g>; fine also to treat the
> 3
> >> > different aspects
> >>
> >>
> >> I think labeling is important. I'm not sure about this '/taxhack' as
> >> well, but it should be
> >> - striking and
> >> - not a category but a project/program.
> >>
> >> Peter
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
> thank:
> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

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