[p2p-research] Request: Peer to Peer and Human Evolution

[Michel Bauwens]

by the way, I'm very much interested in your theoretical considerations on
the state, would you envisage a little series of blog entries to start the
debate?

2010/2/18 Mázsa Péter <peter.mazsa at gmail.com>

> Hi Michael,
>
> 2010/2/17 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > it all depends whom you are addressing, the p2p-f is a pluralist platform
> > with people holding different views, and kevin carson for example, may
> share
> > your position on the state (not sure, but perhaps)
>
> Thank you for the idea: could you connect us?
>
> > but as for myself, in my own formulation of a p2p theory and program and
> > vision, it's not libertarian and anti-state
> >
> > here is a short version,
> >
> http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2007/11/03/the_peer_to_peer_manifesto.htm
> >
> > and two longer political pieces:
> >
> >
> > P2P Politics, the State, and the Renewal of the Emancipatory Traditions.
> > Re-public, Wiki Politics issue, 2007. Retrieved from
> > http://www.re-public.gr/en/?p=133. Reprint at Democracy by the People
> blog,
> >
> http://democracybythepeople.blogspot.com/2008/04/peer-to-peer-politics.html
> >
> > The Political Implications of the Peer to Peer Revolution. Knowledge
> > Politics, Volume 1 Issue 2 (April 2008), pp. 1-24 . Retrieved from
> > http://www.knowledgepolitics.org.uk/kpq-1-2-Bauwens.pdf
>
> The last link is broken: could you please attach it?
>
> > In short, I consider the state inevitable in a class society, and much
> like
> > the ego, something that cannot be abolished, but must be outgrown, and
> this
> > in a probably very long historical process
> >
> > I see the state as fullfilling 3 roles: 1) protecting the system as a
> whole
> > and hence defender of the existing elite and status quo ; 2) reflecting
> its
> > own interest as a separate body; 3) reflecting the balance of power
> > resulting from social struggles and social progress
> >
> > this last characteristic makes it an object of political struggle between
> > the elite and other forces in society, which can partially use it to
> their
> > own purposes
>
> I am definitely not against the state: I think the invention of the
> state & the (originally anarchistic) interstate (=international) order
> is one of the great achievements of the humanity during the last half
> millenium (based on my theoretical considerations I won't specify
> here). From this point of view, we are living in the best of all
> possible worlds (supposed that our resources are practically not
> limited, which I think to be true, and that we survive until we
> populate at least the inner solar system, which I think to be
> uncertain).
>
> Moreover, I completely agree: "14. We need to move from empty and
> ineffective anti-capitalist rhetoric, to constructive post-capitalist
> construction. [...]"
>
> http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2007/11/03/the_peer_to_peer_manifesto.htm
>
> We agree (with Benkler
> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/wealth_of_networks) on the significance
> of the commons...: "Indeed, from civil society emerges a new
> institutionalization, the commons, which is a distinct new form of
> regulation and property. Unlike private property, which is
> exclusionary, and unlike state property, in which the collective
> ‘expropriates’ the individual; by contrast in the form of the commons,
> the individual retains his sovereignity, but has voluntarily shared
> it."
> http://democracybythepeople.blogspot.com/2008/04/peer-to-peer-politics.html
>
> ... and on their organizational consequences: "5. The creation of
> immaterial value, which again needs to become dominant in a
> post-material world which recognized the finiteness of the material
> one, will be characterized by the further emergence of non-reciprocal
> peer production system."
>
> http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2007/11/03/the_peer_to_peer_manifesto.htm
>
> > obviously I think p2p communities should strive for the maximal autonomy,
> > both vis a vis corporations and the state, but I believe that they will
> also
> > inevitably have to compose with them; I also think traditional political
> > struggle, for influence within the state, and molding state actions to
> one's
> > own interests, is a necessary part of the mix which will continue to be
> > needed for a long time
> >
> > however, what is new is that the sphere of autonomy can be increased
> > substantially, and that if both autonomy and political strength increase
> to
> > a certain level, we could morph the state into a partner state model,
> just
> > as the worker's movement succeeded in molding it to a welfare state model
> >
> > as we develop p2p value creation in more and more social domains and
> > activities, then the objective conditions which necessitate a state, will
> > slowly start to unravel, and more and more state functions will lose
> > legitimacy and they will be replaced by p2p processes
> >
> > I do also expect however, that no matter how much confederative processes
> > p2p communities achieve, a guarantor of the general public interest will
> > remain a necessity, but I expect this type of 'p2p state' to be totally
> > unrecognizable from the current form
> >
> > one final item is the distinction you make between bits and atoms in
> terms
> > of the state; I think this distinction is too binary and polarized, and
> that
> > the role of the state in cyberspace will similarly not be avoided, and is
> > not necessarity less legitimate
> >
> > however, we have the great opportunity to create millions of p2p
> communities
> > which will largely escape the role and control of the state, and will
> > determine more and more of their own affairs, again this is part of what
> I
> > see as the process of 'outgrowing'
>
> You say that because the state has a coordination function p2p is not
> able to fulfill...
> "It is important to distinguish the peer governance of a multitude of
> small but coordinated global groups, which choose non-representational
> processes in which participants co-decide on the projects, from
> representative democracy. The latter is a decentralized form of
> power-sharing based on elections and representatives. Since society is
> not a peer group with an a priori consensus, but rather a
> decentralized structure of competing groups, representative democracy
> cannot be replaced by peer governance."
> http://democracybythepeople.blogspot.com/2008/04/peer-to-peer-politics.html
> ... we should reform/transform it into a state which absorbs the p2p
> fabric:
> "11. The role of the state must evolve from the protector of dominant
> interests and arbiter between public regulation and privatized
> corporate modes (an eternal and unproductive binary choice), towards
> being the arbiter between a triad of public regulation, private
> markets, and the direct social production of value. In the latter
> capacity, it must evolve from the  welfare state model, to the partner
> state model, as involved in enabling and empowering the direct social
> creation of value."
>
> http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2007/11/03/the_peer_to_peer_manifesto.htm
>
> What I say here is different: I think
> - states are intrinsically unfit to manage "bits" (however they try to
> fill the void)
> - p2p-s are potentially (but not actually) fit to manage bits
> (supposed there is an appropriate infrastructure for them)
> - state is intrinsically monopolistic organization, practically
> unreformable even in its democratic form (you know that I was a member
> of the State Reform Cabinet of the Hungarian Government when I first
> wrote you:)), and the only way to deal with it is to
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast , not with voluntary tax
> cuts but by way of "driving out" unfitting taxes of intangibles (while
> giving to "Caesar what is Caesar's"
> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2020:25 ), and
> attaching them to elements of an "intangible" political system we feel
> allegiance to,
> - we are both the states and the p2p kind of organizations, and as
> states we are not more fit to manage the business of our freely
> chosen, functionally alien political units, than as member of p2p
> networks to manage states.
>
> > an extra final point, I see peer governance as occuring wherever
> abundance
> > makes allocation of resources redundant, but in every area where this is
> not
> > the case, democratic decision-making will remain necessary,
>
> This could be a firm basis for a joint venture: if we agree that if
> anything, the intangibles are our abundant resources (and the natural
> scope for different kinds of commons), we are both at home:) What do
> you think?
>
>
> Peter
>
> > Michel
> >
> > 2010/2/17 Mázsa Péter <peter.mazsa at gmail.com>
> >>
> >> Dear Michael, Chris and Research List Members,
> >>
> >>
> >> first of all, sorry for the almost 1 month delay.
> >>
> >> The translation of the amendment is ready, we will check it, put it on
> >> our blog, I think Stefan will post you soon along with his comments
> >> and questions, and I will join the debate.
> >>
> >> As for now, I want to ask your help in a different way, concerning the
> >> core of your (our) P2P cause, more exactly, the politics of it.
> >>
> >> I wrote an article (& at last finished the proofreading and correcting
> >> today:) which, as my understanding goes, is a possible political
> >> vision of the P2P evolution.
> >>
> >> This is the link:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://theunitedpersons.org/blog/states-let-them-prey-on-atoms-but-not-on-bits
> >>
> >> I think you have the experience (and the feeling in your gut:) to help
> >> me in answering my question: is it a desirable vision of the future of
> >> P2P evolution? Do we have discrepancies in our understanding of the
> >> explicite/implicite politics of P2P?
> >>
> >>
> >> Thank you for your help:
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
> >> 2009/12/23 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
> >> > That's fine, Peter, good timing,
> >> >
> >> > Michel
> >> >
> >> > 2009/12/23 Mázsa Péter <peter.mazsa at gmail.com>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Michael,
> >> >>
> >> >> I'll contact you (cc Chris & the Research List) asap, I think first
> >> >> half of january. We are translating the amendment and I should clear
> >> >> some open issues for myself. I am driving to Berlin for 2 weeks,
> there
> >> >> I'll have time to think. Stef suggested we should argue on open
> >> >> standards & other stuff in english: I feel inclined to accept this in
> >> >> order to be able to have your opinion.
> >> >>
> >> >> Peter
> >> >>
> >> >> 2009/12/23 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
> >> >> > Hi Peter,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > thanks for the details,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > on what point exactly are you asking my opinion?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2009/12/23 Mázsa Péter <peter.mazsa at gmail.com>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> No, I think you should not refrain.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The main question is whether p2p process is a necessary condition
> >> >> >> for
> >> >> >> a standard to be open: based on my research in Hungarian sketched
> in
> >> >> >> English
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> http://visszaajovo.be/mazsa/the-5-and-only-5-open-standards-requirements
> >> >> >> I am not sure about it, and there is not yet an official
> standpoint.
> >> >> >> We should make it clear publicly first in Hungarian.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> However, like stef, I prefer setting standards p2p rather than g2p
> >> >> >> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1483836&cid=30495906
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> This is the official formula: "Nevertheless, there is much yet to
> be
> >> >> >> done to have the specifications of sockets established in the
> future
> >> >> >> more by means of a public process rather than exclusively by the
> >> >> >> government."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> http://nyissz.hu/blog/10-points-on-the-mandatory-use-of-open-standards-in-hungary/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> And this is our strategy @EU-level
> >> >> >> "In the near future, [...]
> >> >> >> in spite of EU tendencies [
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?entryid=2620&blogid=14
> >> >> >> ] the Alliance seeks to make its approach – interoperability based
> >> >> >> on
> >> >> >> publicly defined [!] open standards – the EU norm under the
> >> >> >> Hungarian
> >> >> >> presidency of the European Union in 2011. To that end, it will
> >> >> >> promote
> >> >> >> public collaboration – possibly between every interested party,
> >> >> >> civil
> >> >> >> and political organisation in the European Union."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> http://nyissz.hu/blog/10-points-on-the-mandatory-use-of-open-standards-in-hungary/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> About global strategy I am intended to publish later, definitely
> in
> >> >> >> spirit of p2p: i'll be interested very much in your opinion.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Yours:
> >> >> >> P.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> 2009/12/22 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>:
> >> >> >> > should I understand from the comments of stef in the fcforum
> list
> >> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> > we
> >> >> >> > should refrain from further publishing it?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > 2009/12/22 Mázsa Péter <peter.mazsa at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I realized because we got hits from your blog. Thanks, both of
> >> >> >> >> you:)
> >> >> >> >> Yours,
> >> >> >> >> P.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 2009/12/22 chris at cataspanglish.com <chris at cataspanglish.com>:
> >> >> >> >> > ;-)
> >> >> >> >> > Cheers,
> >> >> >> >> > Chris
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > On 22 Dec 2009, at 14:28, Michel Bauwens wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Dear Peter,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > by coincidence, chris pinchen just published it on our blog,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > see:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/10-points-on-the-mandatory-use-of-open-standards-in-hungary/2009/12/22
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > 2009/12/18 Mázsa Péter <peter.mazsa at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Michael,
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> could you help me to publish this article:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> http://nyissz.hu/blog/10-points-on-the-mandatory-use-of-open-standards-in-hungary/
> >> >> >> >> >> We have been working on this since 2007.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> And/or tweet:
> >> >> >> >> >> http://j.mp/OpenStandardsinHungary
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Thank you:
> >> >> >> >> >> Peter
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
> thank:
> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>



-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

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