[p2p-research] Profit Measures the Payer's lack of Physical Source Ownership

[Michel Bauwens]

hi ryan,

I think you are starting to see marxism everywhere ... patrick extends the
stallmanite notions to physical production ... but stallman is essentially a
liberal, for markets and free enterprise ... I don't see the marxism in any
of patrick's positions ..

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Ryan Lanham  wrote:
>> > The Marxian stuff of owning means of production is meaningless.
>>
>> Are you saying ownership makes no impact on the Price a consumer pays?
>>
>> What is cheaper:
>> A bunch of friends buy a large van to ride to work together.
>> A bunch of friends rent a large van to ride to work together.
>>
>> If there is no difference between the Costs of Owning and the Price of
>> Renting, then all rental agencies would be reporting zero Profits,
>> right?  I'm sure that is untrue.
>>
>>
> You're partially right as I see it. In many cases renting is far
> cheaper...as with housing.  This isn't controversial.  Like I said, speak to
> any advanced management consultant or venture capitalist and they will tell
> you "assets are evil."  I first heard the words from PhDs at the University
> of Chicago Graduate School of Business who were investors in a venture I
> built.  Companies lease equipment all the time for exactly this reason.  If
> renting was more expensive, no one would ever lease...and yet leases have
> been amongst the fastest growing areas of business.  What is expensive is
> idle equipment.  Buying large amounts of van you don't use...that is what is
> costly.  Depreciation is the enemy...not a friend.
>
>
>> When you own an apple tree, you get apples at exactly the Cost of
>> production.
>>
>>
> Actually, no you don't.  Once again, Marxian over-simplification.  The cost
> of production is the cost of ownership--which includes purchase,
> maintenance, removal and replacement.  All these costs are factored into
> asset models.  Ownership is expensive.  That's why capitalists seek
> productivity and returns.
>
>
>
>> When you don't own the tree but want the fruit, you can buy them from
>> another owner, but he will likely charge you a Price that is more than
>> it really Cost to produce.  That difference is Profit.
>>
>
> The difference is actually specialization.  Guns and butter in Econ 101.
> If I make guns and you make butter, we can both have more of each.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> > It is the capacity to generate profits that is all important.
>>
>> No, the capacity to generate *products* is all that is important.
>>
>> Profit does not occur when a consumer owns the Means (or Physical
>> Sources) of that product.
>>
>>
> Profit occurs when people specialize.  Specialization is efficient.  Profit
> used to be efficient.  It isn't any more because the costs of getting into
> business are becoming extremely low (the death of Marxism...and
> capitalism...ironically.)
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> > Prices are set by demand and supply...not by production costs.
>>
>> Prices are affected by Costs because the Owners must recover at least
>> what it Cost to produce, or they won't even "break even".
>>
>
> Explain Twitter or Facebook...or most venture firms.  It simply isn't the
> case.
>
>
>
>>
>> The difference between Consumer Prices and Owner Costs is Profit.
>>
>> Profit increases as Consumer dependence increases, and decrease as
>> that dependence decreases.
>>
>>
> Again, no, it is the market price.  Once again, this isn't controversial
> except for Marxists.  You can have huge productions of corn and the price
> will not be the production price but the much lower market price.  That's
> why markets (used to) work.  The trouble now is that technology has caused a
> sea change.  Everyone owns a corn farm and people are organizing to grow
> corn for free.
>
> Ryan
>
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>


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