[p2p-research] Repurposing Profit for User Freedom

Sat Feb 6 07:00:57 CET 2010

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:13 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

>  On 2/5/10, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> but I am never arguing for that, so I find it strange that you always
>> bring that up ...
>>
>
>
> Excellent.  Then we can agree coercive state socialism (as in Cuba, China
> or Venezeula) is not something either of us support.  And that people have
> the right to property both real and intellectual and the right to protect
> that property through mechanisms of the state.
>
a few caveats, yes I do not support coercive state socialism, but I don't
think China falls in any way under that rubric anymore, and neither does
Venezuela, whose economy is neither socialist, nor its state particularly
centrally state socialism coercive ... one has to keep a sense of proportion
even as I'm sure there are many issues in Venezuela I'm sure ...

and we should be open to any redeeming features (say Cuba's extraordinarily
agrarian revival, Venezuela's extraordinary success in upping welfare levels
for the majority of the population, China's economic success, etc...)

I'm sure you agree that even though the U.S. is now a banana republic, it
still has many redeeming features, <g>

Michel

>
>>
>>>
>>>> Denying that almost any sector of our mainstream economy are run by
>>>> dominant monopolies would demand pretty strong blindfolds, but indeed they
>>>> are being undermined by the new p2p economy, and not by capitalism itself
>>>> which has been a monopolistic system probably from the beginning of the
>>>> century. The whole system is stacked in favour of big players.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I guess I have pretty strong blindfolds.  I see no monopolies.  I see
>>> desparate hopes for momentary control.  It is indeed the exact oppositive.
>>> It is the instability of profit that is the issue...not the guarantee of
>>> it.  Capitallsm isn't failing because it is corrupt and torpid, it is
>>> failing because it is hypercompetitive and evolving too fast.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It is failing, because it can no longer protect its monopolies, because
>> the new technology does not really allow the tight control on information
>> flows and copying that it could rely on to do this; Buffet said it himself
>> very clearly: free competition kills profits, so the game of capital is to
>> create temporary monopolies (in theory), and in practice, permanent  or very
>> long lasting monopolies, with each industrial sector, through incessant
>> mergers and acquisitions, converging on 2-3 dominant players; the
>> concentration of capital has been extraordinarily intensive since the 80s
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is strange that you say that free and p2p are winning all over, yet
>>>> you are opposed to communal property. But this is exactly what open
>>>> knowledge, free software code and shared designs are, as clearly defined by
>>>> their very licenses! But you probably mean that you oppose coops then, i.e.
>>>> communal property in the physical world? (and please note that public state
>>>> property is NOT communal property). Fair enough, I like coops and they have
>>>> a very good record, they are the largest employer of the world, bigger than
>>>> all the multinationals combined. Yes, I admit it, I prefer, for many
>>>> reasons, distributed property above oligarchic exclusive property that is
>>>> based on massive expropriation.
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am completely not opposed to communal property.  I am a greater
>>> advocate for it than any socialist.  I am for free participation in open and
>>> voluntary systems.  I am for co-ops.  I advocate for them regularly.  I have
>>> worked for one.  Co-ops do have a great record.  They work well.  But you
>>> must not be forced to join a co-op.  At that point they become the failed
>>> past.  Coercion is everything.  If you coerce, you destroy incentive.  The
>>> incentive must be to share and be communal.  If you force it, you destroy
>>> it.
>>>
>>
>>
>> well, then we agree <g>
>>
>>
> I have always thought so.  I have never seen you as an advocate for
> socialism, though like many in this community you seem to harbor a sympathy
> for their rhetoric.  I think a term you once used was "co-traveler."  I am
> not a co-traveler either with those who presume a right of access to
> intellectual property or those who coerce others to share their goods and/or
> ideas.
>
>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
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>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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