[p2p-research] Issue of bullying within private p2p-f communication

Mon Aug 16 21:34:33 CEST 2010

Hi Michel,

I like to pull my weight, and I am not sure I can right now.  If someone
else wants to do it, it would be a favor to me.

If not, I will carry on.

Ryan

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Thanks Ryan,
>
> your wise words are much appreciated, things seem to be calming down now
>
> you have a remark for list support,
>
> that probably merits a remark by Kevin, who could start a search for a
> replacement, if that is really necessary?
>
> Michel
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 11:59 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Sorry, I've been off a bit.  It is probably appropriate for someone else
>> to pick up my list support duties as my personally life keeps me too busy to
>> do much.
>>
>> I have liked Alex and I don't see this as parallel to Nathan or the other
>> fellow whose name I forget.
>>
>> Alex is not loony.  He is angry.  What is coming through here is a
>> frustration, to my mind, with the idea of Michel's guidance of the
>> foundation as its founder and, effectively, it's proxy owner or surrogate.
>> I don't think that frustration is merited.  I think a point was being
>> made...but that lives were at stake in the discussion.  Namely, Michel has a
>> personal stake in his role in what the Foundation is and what it becomes,
>> and anyone who doesn't understand that has never started anything.
>>
>> That said, organizations have the right to govern themselves how they see
>> fit within the law.  In fact, I think that's what Alex has been saying as
>> I've read it.  But organizations don't follow ideals and are imperfect.
>> That much I know.
>>
>> I have long admired Michel as I do still, and he is a man of ideals while
>> yet, as anyone, imperfect.
>>
>> Sadly, language has been used here on both sides that burned bridges.  In
>> business, I've long learned to avoid such language.  No good comes of it.
>> Ever.  It merely raises stakes until someone must crack and walk.  If that's
>> the intent, it is a form of "chicken" as in racing two cars toward each
>> other until someone flinches.
>>
>> I recommend, you both try to write something conciliatory...and if that is
>> impossible to find a path of mutually beneficial advancement, I recommend
>> Alex move on.  He is a smart guy and has a thousand futures.  I also
>> recommend that the governance processes of the Foundation become more
>> formal...whatever the ideal in play.  Organizations always have crises, and
>> this one will be no different.  Mechanisms to face them will always be
>> necessary.
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>  I don't know what came over me but I can see it was a mistake to get in
>>> a fight here.  I apologize for my part in it.
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Michel Bauwens < <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>   Alex,
>>>
>>> this is a voluntary organisation around a shared goal and both the peer
>>> governance of the community and the democracy of the formal foundation have
>>> certainly their place; at the same time, autocracy has no place, and
>>> everybody has a right to build influence and trust through proven
>>> contributions. This is what I have tried to do myself, and as we can see
>>> from the last few weeks, I have no independent power to stop you, and have
>>> not taken any administrive measures to stop you, because I can't (first I
>>> didn't want though now I think we do need some protections against hostile
>>> takeovers)
>>>
>>> you certainly have the right to communicate and to share your vision with
>>> others
>>>
>>> it is also a special project of which I'm the founder, and we're at a
>>> delicate stage of moving towards a more collective project,
>>>
>>> there are two visions at stake, as I see it,
>>>
>>> a pluralist vision where multiple views are possible honouring each other
>>> through mutuality, and where code is subordinated to the creation of
>>> knowledge; and where procedures are secondary to prior effort at consensus
>>> and conflit resolution through dialogue and accepted community arbitrage
>>>
>>> and the way I see it, a vision which claims to know what p2p is, wants to
>>> create tools to enact it in practice, and a very activist board that aims to
>>> steer this effort and does not leave room for other views, which it seeks to
>>> displace and dominate; certainly that is the way I see my experience in the
>>> last few weeks and months
>>>
>>> indeed, in your practice, in the past few months, I see the following,
>>> you enacted code and were insensitive to any challenges to your vision of
>>> it,  you created policy documents given the impression of officialdom
>>> without acknowledging their private proposal status, and you have a habit of
>>> bullying  and insulting the people who disagree with you, in the private
>>> emails that accommpany the public debate .. you fight to win and dominate
>>> and behaved like an autocrat
>>>
>>> none of the problems would have arisen if you had been more modest about
>>> your actions, acknowledged differences graciously, and acknowledged me as a
>>> peer with some influence because of the prior work I have done here. I have
>>> four years of practice to prove that I have never imposed my views
>>>
>>> instead, you sought dominance and power, create code and policy which
>>> aims to dislodge plurality, and openly declare that you are in the game to
>>> oust me
>>>
>>> in theory, yes, this is legitimate, but given the strategy of the coucou
>>> you have been following, I cannot accept, not the challenge, but the fact
>>> that it would consume a large amount of destructive energies, and that there
>>> is someone on board who does not respect the plural vision, the mutuality
>>> required by cooperation
>>>
>>> I'm assuming that seeking dominance for you is second nature, and I am
>>> not sure that you are even aware that you do it, neverthless, imposing and
>>> dominating is what you attempt to do, and you use process and democracy to
>>> hide behind it
>>>
>>> Since you cannot accept the slightest challenge to your all-knowing
>>> certainty about the direction of the p2p foundation, and in my view see it
>>> as a direct attack on the ego, what your call for democracy in reality
>>> means  is a promise for endless scheming and opposing my ideas and vision ..
>>>
>>> It is not that they cannot be challenged, but there must be a certain
>>> amount of acceptance of the road ahead as well, in order to have some form
>>> of commonality amongst our diversity,
>>>
>>> so, peer governance will evolve, and you've seen it in action, we talk
>>> amongst ourselves about the best way forward and how to deal with the
>>> conflict, no one has been barking orders and it has been through the
>>> presentation of the evidence of your actions in the past few weeks
>>>
>>> and we will also have a new board, discuss about the process to nominate
>>> its members, and install democratic procedures
>>>
>>> but, I cannot accept someone who vows to destroy my work, has indeed made
>>> it very hard in the last few weeks to progress on, and vows to continue
>>> until he wins,
>>>
>>> you're win-loose propositions and mentality are in my view not the proper
>>> way to engage with the P2P Foundation, and I reserve the right to make this
>>> known, and to oppose it.
>>>
>>> here's a contribution below that expresses better than myself, what I
>>> think happened, and why you are so fond of democracy and procedure, and are
>>> writing an endless stream of policy pages.
>>>
>>> Again, I'm  normally opposed to psychologizing differences, since they
>>> can be used to prove superiority, yet since it is my conviction that it is
>>> central for what happened between us, I will share it, and to explain my
>>> opposition to your use of democracy as  means to dominate and take over the
>>> P2P Foundation. Not that I believe you will succeed, but because I believe
>>> you will create further damage in the process, and I'm loathe to resume
>>> productive work, without being drained by an endless conflict.
>>>
>>> This is why I'm asking you to retract your democratic threat to do all in
>>> your power to take over this community and to fight me until I'm reduced to
>>> total powerlessness as a user. I already have been in the position of user
>>> vis a vis your imposed new rules and information architecture, I know how
>>> much you have respected my rights to disagree, and I can no longer accept
>>> this, and don't want such a regime to dominate all the good work we have
>>> done so far.
>>>
>>> I have my own flaws, you have your opinion on it which you generously
>>> shared and  I'm sure others can say more, but, I'm pretty sure that there is
>>> no inkling of a desire for autocracy
>>>
>>> so, here is the anonymous quote, that sets behaviour into context:
>>>
>>> (send privately)
>>>
>>> Alex, believe me, you'd be so much happier if you stopped trying to be
>>> the boss and to push other people down, you have great skills and abilities,
>>> you would naturally rise through your contributions, and were, if you had
>>> not sought and thought that you needed to push others away in order to
>>> achieve your goals ... there was place for everybody here
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Alex Rollin < <alex.rollin at gmail.com><alex.rollin at gmail.com>
>>> alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michel, the energy behind your threat is associated with my stated
>>>> intentions to expel you from the board.  I said in private that I want to
>>>> vote you off the board.  I don't see a problem with this intention.  This is
>>>> how democracy works.
>>>>
>>>> To me, this is about democracy, and this is good.  Voting for and
>>>> against a position or for a representative is a good thing.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe this is the subject we should talk about?
>>>>
>>>> If this was a democracy I would vote you off.
>>>>
>>>> I say I have a right to critique your use of authority and the decisions
>>>> you make.
>>>>
>>>> I want users to have rights.  I want users to be represented on the
>>>> board.
>>>>
>>>> I see democracy as an important part of a community.
>>>>
>>>> I have a right to contact others. I have a right to learn from their
>>>> concerns and to share information with them.
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>>   On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 7:43 AM, Michel Bauwens <<michelsub2004 at gmail.com><michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   I want to report on an issue that I had communicated privately, to
>>>>> honour my own promise to restrain myself, but given Sam Rose's reply which
>>>>> I'm not copying in without his permission, confirms that private bullying
>>>>> has gone on much more systematically. I must admit I find it hard to adopt
>>>>> this restraint, since I feel the very survival of what I have tried to
>>>>> build, with others, is at state, and people need to know also what happens
>>>>> 'behind the scenes'. As you will see from the development below, private
>>>>> communication can be used as a weapon, and it's part of the equation and the
>>>>> power play
>>>>>
>>>>> People who have been following this controversy know that it started
>>>>> from increasing frustration that my concerns were not heard, and replies
>>>>> like "read the f ..ing manual". A whole attitude of superiority and
>>>>> dismissal of concern. As you'll see below, I'm literally for Alex "a little
>>>>> man", as well as an "old man" who has to learn to share. I may be a little
>>>>> and old man (I'm 52), but I do not think that I need any lessons in sharing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also reported on the habit of bullying, but perhaps underestimated
>>>>> how persuasive this was. While I have seen examples, I was unaware that
>>>>> similar communication had been directed to other people who expressed
>>>>> support here.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have also another deeper reason for this. James, who like me has a
>>>>> conciliatory and mediating personality (in this of course, I have not kept
>>>>> up that habit), tells me he does not wish to take any specific measures. My
>>>>> problem is that this means only certainly the following scenario unfolding,
>>>>> and bear with me for the explanation:
>>>>>
>>>>> - in the coming weeks, we will collect candidacies for the new board,
>>>>> present it to this list, and see who else wants on, and decide on a process
>>>>> for the nomination. Almost certainly, Alex will pose his candidacy, since he
>>>>> has openly declared that he wants in, and use his position to start a
>>>>> campaign for my ouster. As I indicated, I feel this is inaceptable at this
>>>>> stage of the budding life of the P2P Foundation as something more than a
>>>>> knowledge commons. Permanent 'civil war' will almost certainly dissipate the
>>>>> positive energies needed to continue construction of the movement. This
>>>>> means, that were his candidacy accepted, he would have won. It also means
>>>>> that all the changes that are meant to mold the foundation to his own image,
>>>>> would succeed. This would mean working under a regime that I would abhor,
>>>>> the construction of the P2P Foundation as an authorititarian cult. I accept
>>>>> that Alex has good intentions, but I also strongly believe that there is a
>>>>> lack of self-reflection and that he is not aware of his bullying manner, and
>>>>> prisoner to a conviction of righteousness. To use a historical analogy, when
>>>>> Stalin took over the power structure in Russia, he did not say, I'm an evil
>>>>> man who wants power and send everyone to the Gulag, but draped himself in
>>>>> righteousness, billed the others as enemies, used this righteousness as the
>>>>> standard, and send them to the Gulag. Of course, no such thing could happen
>>>>> in a voluntary organisation, but I want to indicate a similar process. As
>>>>> the policy documents produced by Alex indicate, the Board would consist of
>>>>> ultra-committed advocates, with only one thing in mind, i.e. they would be
>>>>> righteous, they would swear allegiance to his pledge of commitment, and a
>>>>> process would be in place to enforce a p2p orthodoxy that would go in the
>>>>> sense of what has been described. Even if no blood would be shed, the
>>>>> atmosphere would not be that of a congenial and convicial voluntary
>>>>> organisation, but that more akin of a cult, driven by a righteous leader.
>>>>> True all of this is now only visible in seed form, and most of you may not
>>>>> see this, but it is there already if you can see it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Needless to say, I do not want to be part of such an organisation, not
>>>>> of course, because I am against commitment, but because such a vision of
>>>>> p2p-f sees it not as a movement based on come and go voluntary contrbutions,
>>>>> but as something altogether different. I have indicated before that Alex'
>>>>> vision, however legimate as one choice within the p2p sphere, is entirely
>>>>> monological, since he things he can positively describe singular p2p
>>>>> principles and hold people accountable to them. My problem is NOT with that
>>>>> vision, but with the effort to impose that singular vision on the whole of
>>>>> the p2p-f and to make the work of us that disagree, subservient to that
>>>>> monological vision. If Alex has a vision of text as code, however legitimate
>>>>> as a hypothesis and belief, then he simply enacts it, refuses to  take into
>>>>> account any objections, and implicitely forces all of us to go along. If
>>>>> Alex has a vision of the P2P-F as an idealized cult of p2p monks, he writes
>>>>> up policy documents that if accepted, would be the basis to attack those
>>>>> that diverge from that idealized vision.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, if nothing happens, Alex comes on the Board and I
>>>>> refuse to enter it under those conditions, this is far from being only a
>>>>> personal matter only. I will have to create another vehicle for my work, and
>>>>> make sure that next time, there are minimum protective measures that can
>>>>> counter any strategy of the coucou, as we have just witnessed. The rest of
>>>>> you, those that do no wish to act against the imposition of a singular
>>>>> vision, will ultimately also live with the consequences. I expect that most
>>>>> of you would leave once they see the real consequences of the change, but
>>>>> others may come, who like the direction of a stern father figure telling
>>>>> them of the one way to salvation. In the process though, four years of work
>>>>> will have been hijacked, and morphed into something that goes against the
>>>>> orginal spirit.
>>>>>
>>>>> From your experience here, through the wiki, blog and mailing list
>>>>> discussion, you must already be aware of the counter-vision that I have
>>>>> proposed and enacted, with faults and warts but nevertheless as a sincere
>>>>> attempt,  that of the foundation as a pluralistic platform, with mutual
>>>>> respect, and where different visions can co-exist. Such co-existence can
>>>>> also include that of Alex, if he retracts his promise for a permanent civil
>>>>> war, and if he would learn to take his place as a peer instead of imposing
>>>>> his singular vision of everybody else. I have personally lost any confidence
>>>>> and trust that Alex would be capable of this, but would still accept it in
>>>>> the name of due process and giving everybody extra chances. But I won't be
>>>>> happy to work in a context where I have to fight constantly, be bullied. Why
>>>>> would I, since for me as well this is a voluntary engagement, and the new
>>>>> lord does not pay me to undergo this particular treatment.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK then, exhibit one:
>>>>>
>>>>> "it is a user regime.  it always will be, no matter how confused little
>>>>> men like you are.  you old people will have to learn to share, especially
>>>>> since you need the techs in order to do anything.
>>>>> [8/12/2010 7:15:28 PM]
>>>>>
>>>>> (Alex does not see the contradiction of advocating a user regime, while
>>>>> wanting to sit in the board and demote me as a user ... the new regime will
>>>>> not be a user regime, but a board-driven authoritarian organisation, where
>>>>> petty rules (the literarlly hundreds of pages are being produced as we
>>>>> speak) will drive process; what alex has in mind is not just the formal
>>>>> rules of the wikipedia but also it's power structure of powerful admins,
>>>>> that have successfully halted the growth of it)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Exhibit two, a for now anonymous confirmation of my intuition:
>>>>>
>>>>> - You were more than justified. Alex went well into the realm of
>>>>> personal attacks, harassment and bullying towards you in these
>>>>> exchanges. I think the only way you were going to see it stop was to
>>>>> hold up a mirror for him, so that he could see how he was acting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, this is just a waste of time at this point. I see this as
>>>>> bullying, because he's putting pressure on you in an abusive way to
>>>>> try and trip you up, then use this against you.
>>>>>
>>>>> When someone starts doing stuff like this, there's no need to extend
>>>>> the regular respect and patience that you might extend to most others.
>>>>> They don't deserve it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I really hope that other people will hear this, and take steps to avoid
>>>>> the metamorphosis of this project.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
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>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Ryan Lanham
>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>> P.O. Box 633
>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>> Cayman Islands
>> (345) 916-1712
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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>
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>
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-- 
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
P.O. Box 633
Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
Cayman Islands
(345) 916-1712
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