[p2p-research] against human rentals

Tue Aug 10 13:40:51 CEST 2010

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> What do you mean by mutualized assistance?  Do you mean organizations
> of people helping other people?
>

yes, both farmers, workers, intellectuals, even if they have access to
productive resources would still be subject to the vagaries of nature, and
possibly the economy, apart from indivdual health crisis and such .. thus
pooling resources, or having a collective body do it, will remain a
necessity ..

>
> I don't think having direct access to an LK machine will turn
> everybody into opthamologists, so, yes, people need access to
> information and expertise.  That's what P2P is all about, if it's all
> about anything, to me.
>
> What do you mean by social safety net, then?  What other buzzwords
> describe the way a networked society organizes and deals with a
> post-collapse situation, so that we could learn to do it now instead
> of later?
>

yes, the social safety net (health insurance, dole money, pensions) have
historically been the modes of redistribution to alleviate subjection to
natural , social and economic riks, it will still be necessary, though may
take new forms, in a hypothetical p2p society . I think a certain promise of
p2p is to de-bureaucratise a number of these process, and to put back the
control of those resources closer to the citizens themselves

>
> I agree about the disappropriation.  If people have access in the
> first place they are much better off should the abstracted
> super-system fall apart.  Analysis of city grids to highlight
> potential failure points in delivery of services due to shortage of
> oil supply would likely highlight patterns that could also be
> identified by looking at the greatest pollution production for the
> same city grid.
>
> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > yes, ultimately that would be the best safety net, though I would
> strongly
> > doubt it would be enough without mutualized assistance
> >
> >  but since that has not existed for a few hundred years, i.e. the direct
> > access, the social safety net has in practice been about redistribution
> >
> > a lot less redistribution would be needed, if there would be no
> > disappropriation in the first place
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I would say your interpretation rewords mine.  The social safety net
> >> is the direct access of owner/users to productive capital.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > I heard Orlov  years ago and remember hearing the point that the USA
> was
> >> > much less prepared than the USSR,
> >> >
> >> >  This could be for many reasons, though I have doubts about the reason
> >> > given
> >> > below,
> >> >
> >> > I think the issue is less about abstract ownership and more about
> where
> >> > decisions are made,
> >> >
> >> > neither US nor russian workers have or had direct control, but it
> seems
> >> > to
> >> > me the USSR was more centralized, and therefore 'less' in the hands of
> >> > workers; while the U.S. corporate owners, though there are many big
> >> > MNO's
> >> > are also in the hands of many smaller SME's who can take decisions
> >> > closer to
> >> > the ground
> >> >
> >> > but I think another issue is the social safety net, which existed in
> >> > Russian
> >> > and is quasi inexistent in the U.S. .. this means people are pushed in
> >> > desperation much more quickly ...
> >> >
> >> > In general, I think the dislocation of the Soviet Union and the
> >> > extraordinary regression that took place amongst nearly all indicators
> >> > of
> >> > quality of life, is a damning indictement not only of the previous
> >> > regime,
> >> > but also of the successor neoliberal shock therapy capitalism that
> >> > succeeded
> >> > it ...
> >> >
> >> > Ryan has recently shown enthusiasm for the evolution, which surprises
> >> > me,
> >> > given what I heard from Russians and their desperation, though the
> last
> >> > few
> >> > years have been better,
> >> >
> >> > It was also surprising that ryan is so scathing about Venezuela, which
> >> > has
> >> > had extraordinary achievements in poverty reduction, literacy, etc ...
> >> > and
> >> > enthusiastic about the oil-based mafia capitalism in Russia, while it
> >> > seemed
> >> > to me the latter is even more problematic than chavez' caudillismo
> >> >
> >> > Michel
> >> >
> >> > Michel
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I've been listening to the Dmitry Orlov talk from LongNow.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> http://fora.tv/2009/02/13/Dmitry_Orlov_Social_Collapse_Best_Practices#fullprogram
> >> >>
> >> >> I would say, from my listening, that Dmitry's comparison of the
> >> >> structure of the collapses between the US and the USSR places useful
> >> >> emphasis on the resilience of the USSR production systems.
> >> >>
> >> >> The USSR systems were more directly in the hands of users.  Systems
> >> >> that were in the hands/control of workers/owners that relied on the
> >> >> abstracted use-value were more subject to the super-system
> >> >> failure(currency, oil, etc).   These systems held in this fashion
> >> >> sometimes went unproductive or were poorly maintained.
> >> >>
> >> >> The USA systems are not, primarily, in the hands of users.
> >> >>
> >> >> This could be interpreted to mean that from a long term perspective
> >> >> workers claims are less important if their use value is for
> >> >> abstraction or trade, something they could do under the class of
> >> >> owner/user.  Workers might exploit the production operation to the
> >> >> detriment of user/owners with direct needs.
> >> >>
> >> >> Losing access to food, shelter, and transportation were the examples
> >> >> he made.  How could workers sabotage the provisioning of these
> >> >> production systems through abstraction?  One way is to demolish the
> >> >> systems and become capitalists who invest in China or other non-local
> >> >> systems.  Failing to source parts or manufacture locally would be
> >> >> another way.  Using oil to build remote production systems that rely
> >> >> on heavy oil-based transport would be another.
> >> >>
> >> >> A
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Smari shared some interesting insights with me the other day, a
> sort
> >> >> > of treatise on empire as a mathematical construct.  Here is an
> >> >> > example
> >> >> > of a partial extension.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No matter what else is happening, the deepest and widest commons is
> >> >> > always the most inclusive.  It rejects nothing.  At all.  It also
> has
> >> >> > no externalities from this perspective.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Every system can attempt to approach this, and the closer a system
> >> >> > gets the more alike it is to others that reach for the same goal.
> >> >> > Many systems lose all structural historical identification with
> their
> >> >> > origin through the process of ever widening embrace.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > P2P is very much like a set of cellular automata that is present
> all
> >> >> > the way up the value chain.  P2P is not necessarily ambiguous or
> >> >> > ideological, and some would say that a non-ideological P2P, or a
> more
> >> >> > ambiguous and more inclusive P2P is no P2P at all.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Jaap would do well to read some Ken Wilber as his description is
> very
> >> >> > close to the complexity systems proposed there, and that work
> informs
> >> >> > my own work in complexity, too.  I don't say Wilber's work is
> >> >> > definitive.  I do say that the issue is to match based on
> complexity
> >> >> > of operations, and that little else is of sufficient import to
> >> >> > require
> >> >> > technical implementation or even documentation.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> Hi Alex,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I'm selecting a part of your response to Patrick, see below,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Though it is a complex issue and necessarily uses complex
> language,
> >> >> >> I
> >> >> >> think
> >> >> >> what you are hinting at is really the key issue for p2p in the
> >> >> >> physical
> >> >> >> economy, i.e. in the realm of rival goods, equality has to
> co-exist
> >> >> >> with
> >> >> >> diversity, conditional returns, and merit-based allocation as well
> >> >> >> as
> >> >> >> equal
> >> >> >> share, at least for a foreseeable future.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Could you perhaps write an extra into paragraph, for publication
> in
> >> >> >> our
> >> >> >> blog, otherwise, I can think of one,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I do have an issue with the idea of a unified commons,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I think that people still have widely different worldviews, and so
> >> >> >> there is
> >> >> >> the isssue of realization, but also of social acceptance,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> this is why I always see the commons in the context of a
> pluralistic
> >> >> >> economy
> >> >> >> with plural modes of governance, even while wishing the commons
> >> >> >> would
> >> >> >> be the
> >> >> >> core of it,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I think this is also expressed in the Trias Internetica page by
> Jaap
> >> >> >> van
> >> >> >> Till, http://p2pfoundation.net/Trias_Internetica
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Another way to express it is that is imaginable that even p2p
> >> >> >> becomes a
> >> >> >> totalitarian mode without checks and balances and that a plural
> >> >> >> economy
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> governance would provide it .. of course that doesn' t mean that
> the
> >> >> >> vision
> >> >> >> or expectation is not attractive, but it has its dangers
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Michel
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> quote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> For example, if consumers own a common resource, under what
> >> >> >> agreement
> >> >> >> could they simultaneously operate as common equal-share
> >> >> >> equal-authority governors, and yet still individually derive
> >> >> >> differing
> >> >> >> amounts of asset-based value units from the same common pool?  If
> >> >> >> this
> >> >> >> was possible it would mean that each owner can somehow make a play
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> gather more asset-backed value units from the operation than
> another
> >> >> >> owner.    Let's call this asymmetric gain, for short.  Because the
> >> >> >> attempt to derive asymmetric gain is subject to the
> >> >> >> common-governance
> >> >> >> of the equal-share equal-authority owners group, let's say, for
> >> >> >> short,
> >> >> >> that the means by which co-owners decide the rules by which
> >> >> >> asymmetric
> >> >> >> gain is derived is called the owner protocol.
> >> >> >> So, to restate, what is the text of the owner protocol that would
> >> >> >> allow an owner to derive asymmetric gain?
> >> >> >> If you can answer this, then what is the reason for adding an
> >> >> >> additional stakeholder group for workers to the mix?
> >> >> >> The short "solution" (is it incomplete?) might be:
> >> >> >> Owners and workers operate as common equal-share equal-authority
> >> >> >> governors under owner protocol.   An owner wishing to derive
> >> >> >> asymmetric gain is subject to owner protocol.  Additionally,
> workers
> >> >> >> who wish to engage in the trade of asset-backed value units may do
> >> >> >> so
> >> >> >> subject to owner protocol in as much as they wish to derive gain
> or
> >> >> >> asymmetric gain from the common resource in order to trade the
> >> >> >> asset-backed value units for other, different, asset-backed value
> >> >> >> units.  Once in possession of asset-backed value units owners may
> >> >> >> trade these as they wish.
> >> >> >> The difference is that workers are not always interested in the
> >> >> >> direct
> >> >> >> asset-backed value units that are produced by a certain resource.
> >> >> >> In
> >> >> >> some cases workers are interested in the trading value of the
> >> >> >> asset-backed value units, or the use of units as leverage.  All
> >> >> >> workers have needs, and some workers have skills that are
> necessary
> >> >> >> for the operation of many different forms of common resources.
> All
> >> >> >> owners have needs, and from the perspective of a global commons
> they
> >> >> >> have a stakeholder interest in all productive assets.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Alex Rollin <
> alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Patrick's understanding of profit is rather nuanced.  Patrick I
> >> >> >>> applaud your efforts at creating stories and analogies that help
> us
> >> >> >>> all to understand the nuances that you have discovered.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I am under the impression that many folks would agree that it
> would
> >> >> >>> be
> >> >> >>> really neat if all the planet, all the material resources, were a
> >> >> >>> part
> >> >> >>> of a single unified commons where every human (and perhaps even
> all
> >> >> >>> sentient) beings was considered a stakeholder.  This would mean,
> at
> >> >> >>> the very least, that each stakeholder would have a say in things.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> If this was the case, this would be a window into a situation
> where
> >> >> >>> all users where owners.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> >From this point on, things get more complicated.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> >From talking with Patrick on another thread recently, we found a
> >> >> >>> line
> >> >> >>> of inquiry where we were looking at what the reasons were for
> >> >> >>> worker's
> >> >> >>> and owner/users(hereafter owners) to set themselves up as
> separate
> >> >> >>> stakeholder groups.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> The obvious answer is not so obvious.  It's a complex diagram
> >> >> >>> already
> >> >> >>> with at least 3 perspectives - owners, workers, and a commons of
> >> >> >>> some
> >> >> >>> sort that contains productive resources.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> If you add multiple currency commons on top of this, it gets more
> >> >> >>> complicated yet.  For example, sovereign currency and "asset
> >> >> >>> backed"
> >> >> >>> currency like "milk units" or something.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> One rationale for workers and owners to have separate groups is:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> They want different things.
> >> >> >>> Workers want ... more milk, and owners want less.
> >> >> >>> Workers want one currency type and owners want another different
> >> >> >>> type.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> The recent discussion about protocol and networks that was
> blogged
> >> >> >>> about brought up some of the reasons why, for me, P2P is a great
> >> >> >>> set
> >> >> >>> of tools and understandings for picking apart this set of
> >> >> >>> relationships.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> That said, the "solution," if there is such a thing, might
> include
> >> >> >>> quite a bit of diligence and definition.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> For example, if consumers own a common resource, under what
> >> >> >>> agreement
> >> >> >>> could they simultaneously operate as common equal-share
> >> >> >>> equal-authority governors, and yet still individually derive
> >> >> >>> differing
> >> >> >>> amounts of asset-based value units from the same common pool?  If
> >> >> >>> this
> >> >> >>> was possible it would mean that each owner can somehow make a
> play
> >> >> >>> to
> >> >> >>> gather more asset-backed value units from the operation than
> >> >> >>> another
> >> >> >>> owner.    Let's call this asymmetric gain, for short.  Because
> the
> >> >> >>> attempt to derive asymmetric gain is subject to the
> >> >> >>> common-governance
> >> >> >>> of the equal-share equal-authority owners group, let's say, for
> >> >> >>> short,
> >> >> >>> that the means by which co-owners decide the rules by which
> >> >> >>> asymmetric
> >> >> >>> gain is derived is called the owner protocol.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> So, to restate, what is the text of the owner protocol that would
> >> >> >>> allow an owner to derive asymmetric gain?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> If you can answer this, then what is the reason for adding an
> >> >> >>> additional stakeholder group for workers to the mix?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> The short "solution" (is it incomplete?) might be:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Owners and workers operate as common equal-share equal-authority
> >> >> >>> governors under owner protocol.   An owner wishing to derive
> >> >> >>> asymmetric gain is subject to owner protocol.  Additionally,
> >> >> >>> workers
> >> >> >>> who wish to engage in the trade of asset-backed value units may
> do
> >> >> >>> so
> >> >> >>> subject to owner protocol in as much as they wish to derive gain
> or
> >> >> >>> asymmetric gain from the common resource in order to trade the
> >> >> >>> asset-backed value units for other, different, asset-backed value
> >> >> >>> units.  Once in possession of asset-backed value units owners may
> >> >> >>> trade these as they wish.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> The difference is that workers are not always interested in the
> >> >> >>> direct
> >> >> >>> asset-backed value units that are produced by a certain resource.
> >> >> >>>  In
> >> >> >>> some cases workers are interested in the trading value of the
> >> >> >>> asset-backed value units, or the use of units as leverage.  All
> >> >> >>> workers have needs, and some workers have skills that are
> necessary
> >> >> >>> for the operation of many different forms of common resources.
>  All
> >> >> >>> owners have needs, and from the perspective of a global commons
> >> >> >>> they
> >> >> >>> have a stakeholder interest in all productive assets.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Our current economy puts us in the poorly defined middle ground
> >> >> >>> most
> >> >> >>> of the time.  We use sovereign currency units to trade value
> >> >> >>> between
> >> >> >>> small owner-stakeholder groups.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> A
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 3:25 AM, Patrick Anderson
> >> >> >>> <agnucius at gmail.com>
> >> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >> >>> > Samuel Rose wrote:
> >> >> >>> >> If a worker cannot accumulate what they earn,
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Nobody can 'earn' Profit!
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Profit only occurs when Consumers lack ownership.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Consider this scenario:
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Let's say I'm good at jack-hammering, but am sick
> >> >> >>> > and tired of my boss being paid more than it really
> >> >> >>> > costs him to supply the tools and to pay my wage.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > After many years of saving I finally have enough to
> >> >> >>> > buy my own jack-hammer.  So I quit my job as a
> >> >> >>> > wage-slave and advertise my services as an
> >> >> >>> > entrepreneur.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Soon I have many clients and things are going quite
> >> >> >>> > well.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > One day a wealthy so-and-so suddenly decides he is going to
> open
> >> >> >>> > a
> >> >> >>> > tool-rental business with a strange goal:
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > The terms of operation for this business is to "Break even, but
> >> >> >>> > do
> >> >> >>> > not
> >> >> >>> > charge enough to Profit."
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > So now everyone in the area is able to rent jack-hammers and
> pay
> >> >> >>> > exactly the same amount it
> >> >> >>> > costs me in oil, repairs, extra parts, etc.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Now whenever someone needs such work done, I
> >> >> >>> > can only charge the real Costs plus Wages - where
> >> >> >>> > Wages are determined on the "open market".
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > This, by definition, means I will no longer be able to
> >> >> >>> > collect Profit because competition in that field is now
> >> >> >>> > under perfect competition.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > In other words, competition reduces Profit and perfect
> >> >> >>> > competition
> >> >> >>> > *eliminates* profit.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > The reason for this is that before the tools were available
> >> >> >>> > to the Consumers "at cost", I was able to keep other
> >> >> >>> > workers from competing against me because the
> >> >> >>> > barrier-to-entry was the initial expense of the Means
> >> >> >>> > of Production (the jack-hammer).
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > This shows that Profit has nothing to do with Work, but
> >> >> >>> > is only a result of Consumers lacking at-cost access
> >> >> >>> > to the Sources of Production - and where the *ultimate*
> >> >> >>> > guarantee of at-cost access is through real ownership.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> >>> > p2presearch mailing list
> >> >> >>> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> >
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >>> p2presearch mailing list
> >> >> >>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> >> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> >> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Think tank:
> >> >> >> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >> >> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> >>
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >
> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >
> >> > Think tank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > p2presearch mailing list
> >> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> > Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > p2presearch mailing list
> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>

-- 
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Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
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