[p2p-research] some wiki editing rules

Tue Aug 10 08:47:00 CEST 2010

hi sam, alex, james and others,

I'm responding to sam's 2 specific paragraphs,

to see the code I objected too, you have to go to the full original code
before I changed it, I did mention it previously but I want to make my
issues clear again

my problems were:

- very long copy of wikipedia article, which I mistakenly though were the
whole article (alex corrected me on this)

- this article had multiple dead links in the wikpedia format which is not
the one we have used, and judging form the links, they would never have been
activated .. my strong impression is that both the links and the article
were just a decontextualized copy of the wikipedia, copied from the edited
rather than visible page of the wikipedia article

the whole thing just didn't feel right  .. it was like an alien body that
was dumped decontextualized ...

the issue was,  apart form that  judgment, that the categories were
invisible as well,

- furthermore, there was a lot of extra code, that would stream commentary
from other places in our wiki ... I'm not sure what it was, but apart from
never being used in the past and unlikely to be used in the future, it seems
it was this code who wreaked havoc in the visibility of the other parts of
the article

- everything was done in wikipedia format, not our traditional wiki format

now the latter can be discussed, but has implications,

* a lot more code is needed, even for simple things as titling/subtitling

about every wikipedia convention means more work for editors for example,
lots mofe == to use, distinguishing between types of links, etc.. if we
change, what do we do with 13,000 previous articles ??

why changes things that worked already pretty well, etc...

Then Sam offers a solution, but I wonder why that is necessary

but, got to stop, my wife is hitting me with a newspaper because I'm not
coming to eat ...

more on that 2nd point later

PROBLEM 1

Michel wrote there:
"Personally, I find the new way of loading content with tons of
incomprehensible code that takes hours to edit away, absolutely awful,
and a real degradation of our wiki"
Michel, can you please clarify on this page which code you are seeing
a problem with, and help us understand more how it impedes your
effective usage of the wiki. The goal with this question is to figure
out a way that allows useful technical affordances to be employed,
while making sure that you can still effectively edit the wiki. But
first, we need to understand the problem through your eyes.
I think, of course, we should also understand what is being employed
on these pages through Alex's eyes, too.

Michel also said:
"Please let's not copy wholesale articles from the wikipedia and
especially ton's of dead links. The policy of our wiki has always been
not to create dead links."

SOLUTION OF SAM

I would like to suggest that we could maybe do the following on dead links:
1. We need a way to contact active wiki participants as a group
2. We audit them once per month, by viewing
http://p2pfoundation.net/Special:WantedPages and then put out a call
on front page of wiki, and to this list, etc, for people to help build
those pages, with a stated deadline, and a description of what is
minimally needed (should be part of wiki policy somewhere as to what a
stub should minimally contain).
3. If at the end of "x" amount of time, a page is not created (1
month? 1 week?), a bot is used to remove it from
http://p2pfoundation.net/Special:WantedPages list (which removes the
dead link)

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:52 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Alex, a few replies:
>
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Feel free to defend him.  I tend to create policy on the wiki that
> > others can read.  I tend to create the policies by using what Michel
> > has stated to me was useful in the past.  Then I send out links for
> > him and everyone else to read and change.  If you feel like it perhaps
> > you could move in that direction as well so that there is something to
> > look at besides Michel's hearsay.  What he has told me of how the wiki
> > 'is' has been added to articles I created in several categories
> > including help, operations, and administration.  You and anyone else
> > can now traverse these documents easily from:
> > http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:P2P_Foundation
> >
> > I do not dismiss Michel's concerns.  He was putting words in my mouth
> > when he quoted me.  His quote might give you the impression that I
> > dismiss his concerns or that I don't alter my behavior in order to
> > show consideration for his approach and needs.  His is a cry for help,
> > but it has negative consequences for me.  He broadcasts policy to this
> > list that is not written anywhere else.  I go and put it into the wiki
> > and follow it when I do the kinds of activities he does on the wiki.
> > I call him on Skype to understand what he is getting at so I can help
> > to put it in place.  I do this as a community member and collaborator.
> >
> > I would gladly participate in any other productive way to help in the
> > creation of documents and process that preserve Michel's ability to
> > edit the wiki in a way that he has traditionally been comfortable
> > with.  That's why I'm writing back now to the public list, sharing the
> > documents I have created.
> >
>
> Alex, I clipped out the rest of what you wrote. I believe you that it
> may be a valid concern in a debate between you and Michel. It seems
> you both have some sore feelings over this for whatever reasons.
> You're both good people and have good intentions. Any of us can get
> angry and lash out at one another. Yet, we've all proven in the past
> we can transcend personal problems and move on together, and Alex
> Rollins is no exception to being able to do that from what I have
> seen. There's no doubt that Alex is a good person with good
> intentions.
>
>
> Michel, Alex, James, perhaps we can use this public discussion to
> resolve this in a way that everyone can live happily with? (I realize
> you've all already said you can).
>
>
> There's no doubt that as content grows on the wiki, that automation,
> and code-based tools will help make the growing volume of content more
> manageable.  Yet, the findability and usability of content in edit
> mode could create a barrier for Michel, and users like him that are
> averse to working in programmatic modes.
>
> I think that it is vital that these modes can exist in the same wiki,
> in the same space.
>
> Let's take an objective look at one page that Michel raised concerns
> on, and use it as way to come to an understanding.
>
> (I realize that Alex and Michel have already discussed this, and
> perhaps even objectively, but I am going to try and re-initiate
> discussion)
>
> http://p2pfoundation.net/State_Capitalism
>
> The changes Alex made where to add some wiki markup for categories,
> and to import content from wikipedia in the definition area.
>
>
> http://p2pfoundation.net/State_Capitalism?title=State_Capitalism&diff=42199&oldid=42189
>
> Michel's concerns were stated on discussion page:
>
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Talk:State_Capitalism
>
> Michel wrote there:
>
> "Personally, I find the new way of loading content with tons of
> incomprehensible code that takes hours to edit away, absolutely awful,
> and a real degradation of our wiki"
>
> Michel, can you please clarify on this page which code you are seeing
> a problem with, and help us understand more how it impedes your
> effective usage of the wiki. The goal with this question is to figure
> out a way that allows useful technical affordances to be employed,
> while making sure that you can still effectively edit the wiki. But
> first, we need to understand the problem through your eyes.
>
> I think, of course, we should also understand what is being employed
> on these pages through Alex's eyes, too.
>
>
> Michel also said:
>
> "Please let's not copy wholesale articles from the wikipedia and
> especially ton's of dead links. The policy of our wiki has always been
> not to create dead links."
>
> I would like to suggest that we could maybe do the following on dead links:
>
> 1. We need a way to contact active wiki participants as a group
>
> 2. We audit them once per month, by viewing
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Special:WantedPages and then put out a call
> on front page of wiki, and to this list, etc, for people to help build
> those pages, with a stated deadline, and a description of what is
> minimally needed (should be part of wiki policy somewhere as to what a
> stub should minimally contain).
>
> 3. If at the end of "x" amount of time, a page is not created (1
> month? 1 week?), a bot is used to remove it from
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Special:WantedPages list (which removes the
> dead link)
>
> We can research a way together to automate this (and automate making
> interested people aware of the dead links and opportunity to create
> content)
>
> What do you think about that?
>
>
> ___________
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>  --
> Sam Rose
> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://forwardfound.org
> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> http://localfoodsystems.org
> http://notanemployee.net
> http://communitywiki.org
> http://p2pfoundation.net
>
> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>
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