[p2p-research] some wiki editing rules

Tue Aug 10 08:35:02 CEST 2010

hi alex,

I'm responding to the specific case where I removed some of your code after
various attempts to make the categories reappear, but there were more
issues,

- the article had a very large clipping from wikipedia, that seemed quite
unrelated to p2p, at least in my judgment, but the main issue was that you
had also massively copied the internal links of that wiki article in a way
that was entirely diffrent from our own practice ...

- neither the source nor the categories appeared in the visible page

- there was a lot of code which apparently aims at sourcing material from
other pages, but didn't show any content

The two issues for me are the following, there is so much code, not just
around the text but within the text, that editing becomes a very tedious
manual process, like proofreading, and this is a massive drain on my time.
Most of the code has no apparent process than to create idealized
possiblities that are not being used at all, they create clutter without
adding value. Now, ther eason I finally removed the code was not out of
spite, nor to destroy you, but because after repeated attempts to remove
this and that type of code, the categories and source would still not
appear, and so in the end, I just removed them all, and it worked .. the
source and the categories became visible again.

The example itself is not important, as you know, I very rarely remove or
change your contributions, I assume it's for the best, even if I do not
agree with it all, but the key for me is non-interference ... i.e. if your
additions do not hamper anybody else (say what I call category inflation, I
don't really like it, but it doesn't harm anyone since they remain mostly
unused and invisible),

And a lot of, most of what you do, is valuable, extremely valuable

but the accumulation of work over time, the fact that editing becomes so
tedious and time consuming, the fact that most of the extra code is
inoperative but clutters, the fact that you seem to consider yourself the
superior party who needs to enlighten me, and the unresponsiveness towards
basic rules that were followed here for over four years (like the dead links
rule, the use of capitals in entry names), ends up discouraging me ...

Our conflict may be psychological ... you come out with a background which
gives you an identity as a leader and expert ... I had that role ... ...most
people who join have more modest bearings and we talk things out

None of the rules we've set in the past are stet in stone and beyond
discussion, but making changes when there are already 13,000 articles that
used another standard, should be done with care and after discussion, and if
we disagree, we ask the community for input .. this is the way it's been
done in the past, without major problems ...

You changed an enormous amount of things without consultation, I'm sure you
are aware of that. You started using wikipedia conventions, which implies
dozens and dozens of differences with the way things were done, but this was
never discussed,

why should we just emulate the wikipedia .. we are a media wiki, but not the
wikipedia, they are neutral, we are perspectival, they use a scarcity
paradigm, we not ... this is just an example ... where the form you choose,
implies all kind of changes  and presuppositions which were never discussed,
and you were just supposing I have to comply with them ... most of the time,
I do not bother, I have to choose where to spent my energy, including for
the airing of differences

you say that you create policies on what I stated was useful, but I have
only seen very little of that, I can simply see that the way you edit your
pages in new ways and new formats, mean you have not looked at the way it
was done in the past

and yes, you mention that you create a lot of documents, a lot of them
useful, and you ask for comments, but the volume of changes is such that I
can only respond to a fraction of them ... because you are so productive
yourself, like me but in different fields and areas, following you is nearly
a full time job ... I can't do it and this is why I continuously discover
things, some of which I feel is problematical ..

So, if I react Alex, don't consider it as a lack of respect, though I am
angry at times, but simple as the only way I have found to create a dam,
where multiple private communications have not made a dent in stopping a
direction I strongly disapprove of (again, not all you do, but the things
you do specifically which affect the ease of edting that was once possible)

I'm defending something that I see as a core approach, I consider low
threshold participation to be one of the main cores of p2p, in a way that
indeed shows me as an ass sometimes, but I have to do this as long as I see
no other way to defend something crucial .. we have to fight sometimes with
the inadequate weapons we have ...

and you know the feeling is mutual, when I talk with you, I feel exactly the
same, my point of view is totally not taken into account, I'm considered the
inferior party who has to listen and learn and adapt, and the master will
eventually deign to make a small change to what he deeply knows is the right
and superior way to do things .. but since the deeper meaning of my
disagreement is not understood, it doesn't really solve anything ..

Michel

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:56 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> Feel free to defend him.  I tend to create policy on the wiki that
> others can read.  I tend to create the policies by using what Michel
> has stated to me was useful in the past.  Then I send out links for
> him and everyone else to read and change.  If you feel like it perhaps
> you could move in that direction as well so that there is something to
> look at besides Michel's hearsay.  What he has told me of how the wiki
> 'is' has been added to articles I created in several categories
> including help, operations, and administration.  You and anyone else
> can now traverse these documents easily from:
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:P2P_Foundation
>
> I do not dismiss Michel's concerns.  He was putting words in my mouth
> when he quoted me.  His quote might give you the impression that I
> dismiss his concerns or that I don't alter my behavior in order to
> show consideration for his approach and needs.  His is a cry for help,
> but it has negative consequences for me.  He broadcasts policy to this
> list that is not written anywhere else.  I go and put it into the wiki
> and follow it when I do the kinds of activities he does on the wiki.
> I call him on Skype to understand what he is getting at so I can help
> to put it in place.  I do this as a community member and collaborator.
>
> I would gladly participate in any other productive way to help in the
> creation of documents and process that preserve Michel's ability to
> edit the wiki in a way that he has traditionally been comfortable
> with.  That's why I'm writing back now to the public list, sharing the
> documents I have created.
>
> Michel recently removed quite a bit of editing work on a page he did
> not create.  Perhaps you could start there, Sam.  There was no complex
> formatting...simply wiki sections.  You can jump to his defense, and
> it would be nice to have the participation of the community in a
> structural solution that leads to others being able to use the wiki
> alongside Michel.  I look forward to more action and discussion on
> that subject.  If a policy about how we format things for the wiki
> comes up perhaps Michel will be open to learning how to add links to
> categories or how we editors can use sections within an article that
> discusses a certain topic like state capitalism.
>
> This wiki can function very well with simply pasted in content
> organized as Michel has done.  If ever a solution like RDF or some
> other such thing was implemented, though, it requires some form of
> code.  Mediawiki is the most popular wiki on the internet.  If I add
> complex code to a page to make it more useful, and it does not prevent
> Michel from editing the source of information displayed on the page,
> this discrete  action should not be a violation of the "code" but a
> simple negotiation that does not need to be done on this list.  I am
> all for a public forum for hashing out policy, and even conflicts.
> Michel's late diatribes are unfair and inflammatory.  A public
> discussion doesn't need these invectives.  We can handle all sorts of
> business, and you will probably do it without some of the community
> because they, like me, won't let pass such abuse on a regular basis
> and still participate.
>
> The community can mediate any conflict as far as I'm concerned.  I'm
> good with that.  I meant, though, to be clear, that if Michel would
> like help with something on the wiki that I, as a community member, am
> here to help, and that I would like the opportunity to help before he
> decides he needs to drag my name through the mud on the list.  If he
> wants help from the community, great, and he still might notice he
> doesn't need to drag my name through the mud.
>
> If Michel thinks that this is the way to do things, then perhaps the
> community would like to comment on that as well?    Or are we all
> allies to such an extent that this sort of critique is not necessary?
> We can say whatever we like about anyone any time?
>
> I appreciate the way you phrased your responses Sam.  I don't sense
> any licentiousness in your tone and I appreciate that very much.  I
> invite you to join in the edits on the wiki.  Michel looks to you for
> guidance in this.  Your work on Community Wiki's decision making
> policies and such was a great effort.  The P2P Foundation's wiki is a
> community resource, and the community of decision makers appears to
> include you, James, and Michel.  I look forward to hearing more about
> how this might change in the future.
>
> Alex
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> I am not dismissive of Michel's attempts to chat,
> >
> > Sounded to me like he was saying: *not* that you were dismissive of
> > his attempts to chat, but rather specifically that Michel believes you
> > are dismissive of the specific concerns that he's raised in this
> > thread. I will take Michel at his word for what he is saying in this
> > regard.
> >
> >>but I do feel
> >> marginalized by his refusal to contact me directly.
> >
> > It is reasonable that Michel wants to deal with the problem he is
> > seeing in a transparent way, that affords feedback from the community.
> > P2P wiki is a community resource.
> >
> >>I am happy to
> >> collaborate on solutions.
> >
> > I'd like to recommend that you and Michel work this out in a public
> > forum, not privately. This will help the larger goal that you seem to
> > have, Alex, which is opening up for more participation.
> >
> >>I put in 25 hours a week writing on this
> >> wiki and patrolling spammers etc.
> >
> > I am glad that you are doing this. Thank you.
> >
> >> All work is related, at the moment
> >> and based on an agreement with Michel about how to follow through with
> >> an open workers cooperative that welcomes all of the p2p research
> >> community to join together in commons based endeavors.
> >
> >
> >> I refuse to be
> >> treated or spoken of like some unresponsive miscreant without
> >> complaint.  It is rude and does not brook any respect with me.
> >>
> >
> > Please accept my apologies, Alex.
> >
> > I've got a lot of affinity/loyalty towards Michel Bauwens. If he seems
> > to me to be indicating he's in trouble or conflict, I will move to
> > defend.
> >
> >
> >> A
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 4:21 AM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> hi sam,
> >>>>
> >>>> I spent another 15 minutes today just to get an article posted by Alex
> to
> >>>> also show its categories ... there's so much code now on a page, lots
> of
> >>>> dead links, and there was no visible sourcing on the visible page ...
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not blaming mistakes, but I don't see progress, when I can now
> post only
> >>>> 5 articles a day  instead of 30,
> >>>>
> >>>> for me, the technological approach should be emergent and organic, see
> from
> >>>> current practice how it can be improved, make sure everyone is on
> board,
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree. There has to be some middleground here somewhere. Michel's
> >>> concerns should not be dismissed. This is really easy for me to
> >>> understand.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> it seems to me that the current vision is to imagine an idealized
> content
> >>>> manufacturing system, based on heaving coding, and which makes
> participation
> >>>> increasingly difficult, certainly on  my side, I am contemplating the
> >>>> creation of two wiki's, and to let Alex run a separate
> p2pfoundation.com,
> >>>> which he can automate at his heart's content
> >>>>
> >>>> since alex think I should just adapt and learn to code myself, our
> >>>> communication is not as smooth as it should be ...
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> This assumption is faulty, and seems to be breeding conflict among the
> >>> main participants of this resource. You shouldn't have to feel the
> >>> need to be driven to fork this wiki. P2P Foundation needs a way to
> >>> deal with conflicts like this, before they become destructive to
> >>> everyone connected.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> what is the rationale for wikipedia stuff?
> >>>>
> >>>> this was the 'historical practice': the  wiki is based on
> opportunistic
> >>>> updating, this is, relevant quotations are puzzled together and grow
> >>>> gradually into article combining various perspectives on a topic, a
> >>>> wikipedia definition was occasionally included for clarity and
> introduction,
> >>>> with just refernece to the rest of the article
> >>>>
> >>>> the intent of the wikipedia, a universal neutral and self-written
> >>>> encyclopedia, is entirely different from our wiki which was until now
> based
> >>>> on collecting the external collective intelligence
> >>>>
> >>>> alex is now creating a new layer with self-written articles on how to
> >>>> proceed for p2p organisations, which I applaud, and it doesn't
> interfere
> >>>> with the other layer of the wiki,
> >>>>
> >>>> however, the  forced technologizing of the wiki is a different matter,
> it's
> >>>> done without regard for previous need, based on a imposed idealistic
> vision
> >>>> of how others should work, integrated without dialogue, and greatly
> >>>> increases the difficulty of adding content ... it's in danger of
> creating
> >>>> the same effect as what happens int he wikipedia, flat growth, and
> then
> >>>> decline,
> >>>>
> >>>> for me, and I've considered this formulation, it is the gravest
> existential
> >>>> threat to the work I have undertaken so far, and this is why I feel so
> >>>> strong about it,
> >>>>
> >>>> I have often communicated with alex about not multiplying dead links,
> >>>> sourcing the articles, and other simple rules, but alex does not seem
> to
> >>>> agree with the old rules ... none of the old formats regarding
> >>>> titles/subtiles etc... is respected, it seems that wikipedia's rules
> have
> >>>> been introduced systematlically, but again this was never discussed
> >>>>
> >>>> conversation with alex, I'm sorry to say, always ends in his
> concluding
> >>>> remark, "this is how it should be done, and will be done from now on,
> get
> >>>> over it" ...
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I don't think this is an acceptable way of dealing with the problem.
> >>>
> >>>> I suppose this will lead to permanent trench warfare, and that I will
> go in
> >>>> a regular rage because of the powerlessness I feel, and the threat it
> >>>> represents to the wiki, as I see it,
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I guess I don't fully understand P2P Foundation as an organization.
> >>> Are there not some rules that outline how resources shall be
> >>> co-governed/co-managed? If I recall correctly, the wiki was not
> >>> intended to be fully open, but was instead accessed via invitation
> >>> from you. Perhaps it's time to create a set of organizational rules
> >>> that describe clearly how resources are co-governed/co-managed?
> >>>
> >>>> Michel
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 1:43 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> > It's just wiki markup.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sounds to me, though, that it is not all decipherable by Michel.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> >Let me know when you run into a hiccup.
> >>>>> > Broadcasting to this list won't get me to respond. I don't copy off
> >>>>> > wikipedia for no reason.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What is the rationale for including wikipedia stuff?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> >Check out the current inspiration for
> >>>>> > Michel's comment here.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > http://p2pfoundation.net/Talk:State_Capitalism
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > A
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Dear friends,
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> I would like to remind contributors of the policy that was used in
> the
> >>>>> >> last
> >>>>> >> four years:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> 1) please no wholesale dumping of wikipedia entries
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> 2) please, no dead links, do not create links to material which
> you do
> >>>>> >> not
> >>>>> >> intend to create immediately (I had to change an article that had
> about
> >>>>> >> 40
> >>>>> >> dead links)
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> 3) adding tons of complicated code is making editing a huge
> headache, I
> >>>>> >> am
> >>>>> >> now spending 15 minutes editing articles which used to take 30
> seconds
> >>>>> >> ...
> >>>>> >> it's a huge drain on productivity
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> I'm very close to feeling that my practice is incompatible with
> that of
> >>>>> >> Alex
> >>>>> >> Rollin (sorry Alex, but I got to say this), and that we will need
> two
> >>>>> >> wikis,
> >>>>> >> one where the geeks amongst us can play at their hearts content,
> and
> >>>>> >> one
> >>>>> >> which keeps the simplicity of organization and procedure which
> lead to
> >>>>> >> 12,000 articlds and 13 million pageviews in 4 years.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Michel
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> --
> >>>>> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >>>>> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >>>>> >>
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >>>>> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Think tank:
> >>>>> >> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >>>>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >>>>> >>
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>>> > p2presearch mailing list
> >>>>> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >>>>> >
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Sam Rose
> >>>>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> >>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> >>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> >>>>> skype: samuelrose
> >>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> >>>>> http://forwardfound.org
> >>>>> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
> >>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> >>>>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> >>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> >>>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
> >>>>> http://notanemployee.net
> >>>>> http://communitywiki.org
> >>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> >>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> p2presearch mailing list
> >>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >>>>>
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >>>>
> >>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >>>>
> >>>> Think tank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> p2presearch mailing list
> >>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> --
> >>> Sam Rose
> >>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> >>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> >>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> >>> skype: samuelrose
> >>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> >>> http://forwardfound.org
> >>> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
> >>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> >>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> >>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> >>> http://localfoodsystems.org
> >>> http://notanemployee.net
> >>> http://communitywiki.org
> >>> http://p2pfoundation.net
> >>>
> >>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> >>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> p2presearch mailing list
> >>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Sam Rose
> > Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> > skype: samuelrose
> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> > http://forwardfound.org
> > http://futureforwardinstitute.org
> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> > http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> > http://localfoodsystems.org
> > http://notanemployee.net
> > http://communitywiki.org
> > http://p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> > ambition." - Carl Sagan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > p2presearch mailing list
> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
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