[p2p-research] some wiki editing rules

Mon Aug 9 17:56:04 CEST 2010

Feel free to defend him.  I tend to create policy on the wiki that
others can read.  I tend to create the policies by using what Michel
has stated to me was useful in the past.  Then I send out links for
him and everyone else to read and change.  If you feel like it perhaps
you could move in that direction as well so that there is something to
look at besides Michel's hearsay.  What he has told me of how the wiki
'is' has been added to articles I created in several categories
including help, operations, and administration.  You and anyone else
can now traverse these documents easily from:
http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:P2P_Foundation

I do not dismiss Michel's concerns.  He was putting words in my mouth
when he quoted me.  His quote might give you the impression that I
dismiss his concerns or that I don't alter my behavior in order to
show consideration for his approach and needs.  His is a cry for help,
but it has negative consequences for me.  He broadcasts policy to this
list that is not written anywhere else.  I go and put it into the wiki
and follow it when I do the kinds of activities he does on the wiki.
I call him on Skype to understand what he is getting at so I can help
to put it in place.  I do this as a community member and collaborator.

I would gladly participate in any other productive way to help in the
creation of documents and process that preserve Michel's ability to
edit the wiki in a way that he has traditionally been comfortable
with.  That's why I'm writing back now to the public list, sharing the
documents I have created.

Michel recently removed quite a bit of editing work on a page he did
not create.  Perhaps you could start there, Sam.  There was no complex
formatting...simply wiki sections.  You can jump to his defense, and
it would be nice to have the participation of the community in a
structural solution that leads to others being able to use the wiki
alongside Michel.  I look forward to more action and discussion on
that subject.  If a policy about how we format things for the wiki
comes up perhaps Michel will be open to learning how to add links to
categories or how we editors can use sections within an article that
discusses a certain topic like state capitalism.

This wiki can function very well with simply pasted in content
organized as Michel has done.  If ever a solution like RDF or some
other such thing was implemented, though, it requires some form of
code.  Mediawiki is the most popular wiki on the internet.  If I add
complex code to a page to make it more useful, and it does not prevent
Michel from editing the source of information displayed on the page,
this discrete  action should not be a violation of the "code" but a
simple negotiation that does not need to be done on this list.  I am
all for a public forum for hashing out policy, and even conflicts.
Michel's late diatribes are unfair and inflammatory.  A public
discussion doesn't need these invectives.  We can handle all sorts of
business, and you will probably do it without some of the community
because they, like me, won't let pass such abuse on a regular basis
and still participate.

The community can mediate any conflict as far as I'm concerned.  I'm
good with that.  I meant, though, to be clear, that if Michel would
like help with something on the wiki that I, as a community member, am
here to help, and that I would like the opportunity to help before he
decides he needs to drag my name through the mud on the list.  If he
wants help from the community, great, and he still might notice he
doesn't need to drag my name through the mud.

If Michel thinks that this is the way to do things, then perhaps the
community would like to comment on that as well?    Or are we all
allies to such an extent that this sort of critique is not necessary?
We can say whatever we like about anyone any time?

I appreciate the way you phrased your responses Sam.  I don't sense
any licentiousness in your tone and I appreciate that very much.  I
invite you to join in the edits on the wiki.  Michel looks to you for
guidance in this.  Your work on Community Wiki's decision making
policies and such was a great effort.  The P2P Foundation's wiki is a
community resource, and the community of decision makers appears to
include you, James, and Michel.  I look forward to hearing more about
how this might change in the future.

Alex

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am not dismissive of Michel's attempts to chat,
>
> Sounded to me like he was saying: *not* that you were dismissive of
> his attempts to chat, but rather specifically that Michel believes you
> are dismissive of the specific concerns that he's raised in this
> thread. I will take Michel at his word for what he is saying in this
> regard.
>
>>but I do feel
>> marginalized by his refusal to contact me directly.
>
> It is reasonable that Michel wants to deal with the problem he is
> seeing in a transparent way, that affords feedback from the community.
> P2P wiki is a community resource.
>
>>I am happy to
>> collaborate on solutions.
>
> I'd like to recommend that you and Michel work this out in a public
> forum, not privately. This will help the larger goal that you seem to
> have, Alex, which is opening up for more participation.
>
>>I put in 25 hours a week writing on this
>> wiki and patrolling spammers etc.
>
> I am glad that you are doing this. Thank you.
>
>> All work is related, at the moment
>> and based on an agreement with Michel about how to follow through with
>> an open workers cooperative that welcomes all of the p2p research
>> community to join together in commons based endeavors.
>
>
>> I refuse to be
>> treated or spoken of like some unresponsive miscreant without
>> complaint.  It is rude and does not brook any respect with me.
>>
>
> Please accept my apologies, Alex.
>
> I've got a lot of affinity/loyalty towards Michel Bauwens. If he seems
> to me to be indicating he's in trouble or conflict, I will move to
> defend.
>
>
>> A
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 4:21 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hi sam,
>>>>
>>>> I spent another 15 minutes today just to get an article posted by Alex to
>>>> also show its categories ... there's so much code now on a page, lots of
>>>> dead links, and there was no visible sourcing on the visible page ...
>>>>
>>>> I'm not blaming mistakes, but I don't see progress, when I can now post only
>>>> 5 articles a day  instead of 30,
>>>>
>>>> for me, the technological approach should be emergent and organic, see from
>>>> current practice how it can be improved, make sure everyone is on board,
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree. There has to be some middleground here somewhere. Michel's
>>> concerns should not be dismissed. This is really easy for me to
>>> understand.
>>>
>>>
>>>> it seems to me that the current vision is to imagine an idealized content
>>>> manufacturing system, based on heaving coding, and which makes participation
>>>> increasingly difficult, certainly on  my side, I am contemplating the
>>>> creation of two wiki's, and to let Alex run a separate p2pfoundation.com,
>>>> which he can automate at his heart's content
>>>>
>>>> since alex think I should just adapt and learn to code myself, our
>>>> communication is not as smooth as it should be ...
>>>>
>>>
>>> This assumption is faulty, and seems to be breeding conflict among the
>>> main participants of this resource. You shouldn't have to feel the
>>> need to be driven to fork this wiki. P2P Foundation needs a way to
>>> deal with conflicts like this, before they become destructive to
>>> everyone connected.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> what is the rationale for wikipedia stuff?
>>>>
>>>> this was the 'historical practice': the  wiki is based on opportunistic
>>>> updating, this is, relevant quotations are puzzled together and grow
>>>> gradually into article combining various perspectives on a topic, a
>>>> wikipedia definition was occasionally included for clarity and introduction,
>>>> with just refernece to the rest of the article
>>>>
>>>> the intent of the wikipedia, a universal neutral and self-written
>>>> encyclopedia, is entirely different from our wiki which was until now based
>>>> on collecting the external collective intelligence
>>>>
>>>> alex is now creating a new layer with self-written articles on how to
>>>> proceed for p2p organisations, which I applaud, and it doesn't interfere
>>>> with the other layer of the wiki,
>>>>
>>>> however, the  forced technologizing of the wiki is a different matter, it's
>>>> done without regard for previous need, based on a imposed idealistic vision
>>>> of how others should work, integrated without dialogue, and greatly
>>>> increases the difficulty of adding content ... it's in danger of creating
>>>> the same effect as what happens int he wikipedia, flat growth, and then
>>>> decline,
>>>>
>>>> for me, and I've considered this formulation, it is the gravest existential
>>>> threat to the work I have undertaken so far, and this is why I feel so
>>>> strong about it,
>>>>
>>>> I have often communicated with alex about not multiplying dead links,
>>>> sourcing the articles, and other simple rules, but alex does not seem to
>>>> agree with the old rules ... none of the old formats regarding
>>>> titles/subtiles etc... is respected, it seems that wikipedia's rules have
>>>> been introduced systematlically, but again this was never discussed
>>>>
>>>> conversation with alex, I'm sorry to say, always ends in his concluding
>>>> remark, "this is how it should be done, and will be done from now on, get
>>>> over it" ...
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think this is an acceptable way of dealing with the problem.
>>>
>>>> I suppose this will lead to permanent trench warfare, and that I will go in
>>>> a regular rage because of the powerlessness I feel, and the threat it
>>>> represents to the wiki, as I see it,
>>>>
>>>
>>> I guess I don't fully understand P2P Foundation as an organization.
>>> Are there not some rules that outline how resources shall be
>>> co-governed/co-managed? If I recall correctly, the wiki was not
>>> intended to be fully open, but was instead accessed via invitation
>>> from you. Perhaps it's time to create a set of organizational rules
>>> that describe clearly how resources are co-governed/co-managed?
>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 1:43 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > It's just wiki markup.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds to me, though, that it is not all decipherable by Michel.
>>>>>
>>>>> >Let me know when you run into a hiccup.
>>>>> > Broadcasting to this list won't get me to respond. I don't copy off
>>>>> > wikipedia for no reason.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the rationale for including wikipedia stuff?
>>>>>
>>>>> >Check out the current inspiration for
>>>>> > Michel's comment here.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > http://p2pfoundation.net/Talk:State_Capitalism
>>>>> >
>>>>> > A
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Dear friends,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I would like to remind contributors of the policy that was used in the
>>>>> >> last
>>>>> >> four years:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 1) please no wholesale dumping of wikipedia entries
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 2) please, no dead links, do not create links to material which you do
>>>>> >> not
>>>>> >> intend to create immediately (I had to change an article that had about
>>>>> >> 40
>>>>> >> dead links)
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 3) adding tons of complicated code is making editing a huge headache, I
>>>>> >> am
>>>>> >> now spending 15 minutes editing articles which used to take 30 seconds
>>>>> >> ...
>>>>> >> it's a huge drain on productivity
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I'm very close to feeling that my practice is incompatible with that of
>>>>> >> Alex
>>>>> >> Rollin (sorry Alex, but I got to say this), and that we will need two
>>>>> >> wikis,
>>>>> >> one where the geeks amongst us can play at their hearts content, and
>>>>> >> one
>>>>> >> which keeps the simplicity of organization and procedure which lead to
>>>>> >> 12,000 articlds and 13 million pageviews in 4 years.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Michel
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>>> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Think tank:
>>>>> >> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> http://forwardfound.org
>>>>> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>> http://notanemployee.net
>>>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>
>>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Sam Rose
>>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>> skype: samuelrose
>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>> http://forwardfound.org
>>> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>> http://notanemployee.net
>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Sam Rose
> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://forwardfound.org
> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> http://localfoodsystems.org
> http://notanemployee.net
> http://communitywiki.org
> http://p2pfoundation.net
>
> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>