[p2p-research] some wiki editing rules

Samuel Rose samuel.rose at gmail.com
Mon Aug 9 16:44:30 CEST 2010 

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not dismissive of Michel's attempts to chat,

Sounded to me like he was saying: *not* that you were dismissive of
his attempts to chat, but rather specifically that Michel believes you
are dismissive of the specific concerns that he's raised in this
thread. I will take Michel at his word for what he is saying in this
regard.

>but I do feel
> marginalized by his refusal to contact me directly.

It is reasonable that Michel wants to deal with the problem he is
seeing in a transparent way, that affords feedback from the community.
P2P wiki is a community resource.

>I am happy to
> collaborate on solutions.

I'd like to recommend that you and Michel work this out in a public
forum, not privately. This will help the larger goal that you seem to
have, Alex, which is opening up for more participation.

>I put in 25 hours a week writing on this
> wiki and patrolling spammers etc.

I am glad that you are doing this. Thank you.

> All work is related, at the moment
> and based on an agreement with Michel about how to follow through with
> an open workers cooperative that welcomes all of the p2p research
> community to join together in commons based endeavors.


> I refuse to be
> treated or spoken of like some unresponsive miscreant without
> complaint.  It is rude and does not brook any respect with me.
>

Please accept my apologies, Alex.

I've got a lot of affinity/loyalty towards Michel Bauwens. If he seems
to me to be indicating he's in trouble or conflict, I will move to
defend.


> A
>
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 4:21 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> hi sam,
>>>
>>> I spent another 15 minutes today just to get an article posted by Alex to
>>> also show its categories ... there's so much code now on a page, lots of
>>> dead links, and there was no visible sourcing on the visible page ...
>>>
>>> I'm not blaming mistakes, but I don't see progress, when I can now post only
>>> 5 articles a day  instead of 30,
>>>
>>> for me, the technological approach should be emergent and organic, see from
>>> current practice how it can be improved, make sure everyone is on board,
>>>
>>
>>
>> I agree. There has to be some middleground here somewhere. Michel's
>> concerns should not be dismissed. This is really easy for me to
>> understand.
>>
>>
>>> it seems to me that the current vision is to imagine an idealized content
>>> manufacturing system, based on heaving coding, and which makes participation
>>> increasingly difficult, certainly on  my side, I am contemplating the
>>> creation of two wiki's, and to let Alex run a separate p2pfoundation.com,
>>> which he can automate at his heart's content
>>>
>>> since alex think I should just adapt and learn to code myself, our
>>> communication is not as smooth as it should be ...
>>>
>>
>> This assumption is faulty, and seems to be breeding conflict among the
>> main participants of this resource. You shouldn't have to feel the
>> need to be driven to fork this wiki. P2P Foundation needs a way to
>> deal with conflicts like this, before they become destructive to
>> everyone connected.
>>
>>
>>
>>> what is the rationale for wikipedia stuff?
>>>
>>> this was the 'historical practice': the  wiki is based on opportunistic
>>> updating, this is, relevant quotations are puzzled together and grow
>>> gradually into article combining various perspectives on a topic, a
>>> wikipedia definition was occasionally included for clarity and introduction,
>>> with just refernece to the rest of the article
>>>
>>> the intent of the wikipedia, a universal neutral and self-written
>>> encyclopedia, is entirely different from our wiki which was until now based
>>> on collecting the external collective intelligence
>>>
>>> alex is now creating a new layer with self-written articles on how to
>>> proceed for p2p organisations, which I applaud, and it doesn't interfere
>>> with the other layer of the wiki,
>>>
>>> however, the  forced technologizing of the wiki is a different matter, it's
>>> done without regard for previous need, based on a imposed idealistic vision
>>> of how others should work, integrated without dialogue, and greatly
>>> increases the difficulty of adding content ... it's in danger of creating
>>> the same effect as what happens int he wikipedia, flat growth, and then
>>> decline,
>>>
>>> for me, and I've considered this formulation, it is the gravest existential
>>> threat to the work I have undertaken so far, and this is why I feel so
>>> strong about it,
>>>
>>> I have often communicated with alex about not multiplying dead links,
>>> sourcing the articles, and other simple rules, but alex does not seem to
>>> agree with the old rules ... none of the old formats regarding
>>> titles/subtiles etc... is respected, it seems that wikipedia's rules have
>>> been introduced systematlically, but again this was never discussed
>>>
>>> conversation with alex, I'm sorry to say, always ends in his concluding
>>> remark, "this is how it should be done, and will be done from now on, get
>>> over it" ...
>>>
>>
>> I don't think this is an acceptable way of dealing with the problem.
>>
>>> I suppose this will lead to permanent trench warfare, and that I will go in
>>> a regular rage because of the powerlessness I feel, and the threat it
>>> represents to the wiki, as I see it,
>>>
>>
>> I guess I don't fully understand P2P Foundation as an organization.
>> Are there not some rules that outline how resources shall be
>> co-governed/co-managed? If I recall correctly, the wiki was not
>> intended to be fully open, but was instead accessed via invitation
>> from you. Perhaps it's time to create a set of organizational rules
>> that describe clearly how resources are co-governed/co-managed?
>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 1:43 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > It's just wiki markup.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds to me, though, that it is not all decipherable by Michel.
>>>>
>>>> >Let me know when you run into a hiccup.
>>>> > Broadcasting to this list won't get me to respond. I don't copy off
>>>> > wikipedia for no reason.
>>>>
>>>> What is the rationale for including wikipedia stuff?
>>>>
>>>> >Check out the current inspiration for
>>>> > Michel's comment here.
>>>> >
>>>> > http://p2pfoundation.net/Talk:State_Capitalism
>>>> >
>>>> > A
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Dear friends,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I would like to remind contributors of the policy that was used in the
>>>> >> last
>>>> >> four years:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 1) please no wholesale dumping of wikipedia entries
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 2) please, no dead links, do not create links to material which you do
>>>> >> not
>>>> >> intend to create immediately (I had to change an article that had about
>>>> >> 40
>>>> >> dead links)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 3) adding tons of complicated code is making editing a huge headache, I
>>>> >> am
>>>> >> now spending 15 minutes editing articles which used to take 30 seconds
>>>> >> ...
>>>> >> it's a huge drain on productivity
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I'm very close to feeling that my practice is incompatible with that of
>>>> >> Alex
>>>> >> Rollin (sorry Alex, but I got to say this), and that we will need two
>>>> >> wikis,
>>>> >> one where the geeks amongst us can play at their hearts content, and
>>>> >> one
>>>> >> which keeps the simplicity of organization and procedure which lead to
>>>> >> 12,000 articlds and 13 million pageviews in 4 years.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Michel
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Think tank:
>>>> >> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Sam Rose
>>>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>> http://forwardfound.org
>>>> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>> http://notanemployee.net
>>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> http://forwardfound.org
>> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>> http://notanemployee.net
>> http://communitywiki.org
>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>
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>



-- 
--
Sam Rose
Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://forwardfound.org
http://futureforwardinstitute.org
http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
http://socialmediaclassroom.com
http://localfoodsystems.org
http://notanemployee.net
http://communitywiki.org
http://p2pfoundation.net

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan

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