[p2p-research] against human rentals

Mon Aug 9 15:35:56 CEST 2010

There are so many "always" and "I"s in here I don't know what to say.

A

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> the position of the left has always been that the "real freedom of all" is
> the condition for the freedom of the individual, not in the sense of just
> formal rights, but real freedom to undertake one's life, which necessitates
> access to real resources, and this contrast with the liberal position that
> comines formal rights with corporate ownership, and does not see a problem
> that the majority is deprived of ownership of these means.
>
> nevertheless, I think the stress has always been either on corporate private
> initiative, and/or socialized means of production, but not the proposed
> systems, like say distributism, which want to place the access and control
> of productive resources at the individual level,
>
> my sense is, at least for europe and the U.S., that given the perceived or
> experienced failure of the socialized systems, and the combined failure of
> the present system, that 'collectivist' approaches have become less
> appealing, but that commons approaches, which do not 'dis-appropriate'
> individuals, are more appealing ..
>
> my feeling is that the emering p2p mentality is aligned to this shift,
>
>
>
> Michel
>
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I would say that personal freedom is very important in Europe.  Same
>> with happiness.
>>
>> Possession has superseded ownership in many areas.
>>
>> There's lots to read on the subject.  There is a reason the Commons
>> Conference is in Germany.  It's not easy to do such a thing in
>> America.
>>
>> Commons are about individual access, too.
>>
>> A
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > thanks alex,
>> >
>> > it seems to me that at least in europe, the history of a
>> > non-collectivist
>> > left has been mostly forgotten and deleted from the labour movement's
>> > history,
>> >
>> > Michel
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hodgskin
>> >> Breakthrough from the early 1800s!
>> >>
>> >> Thomas Hodgskin (b. 12 December 1787 Chatham, Kent, d. - 21 August
>> >> 1869 Feltham, Middlesex) was an English socialist writer on political
>> >> economy, critic of capitalism, free-market anarchist[1] and defender
>> >> of free trade and early trade unions.
>> >> Born of a father who worked in the Chatham Naval Dockyard, Hodgskin
>> >> joined the navy at the age of 12. He rose rapidly through the ranks in
>> >> the years of naval struggle with the French to the rank of first
>> >> lieutenant. Following the naval defeat of the French the opportunities
>> >> for advancement closed and Hodgskin increasingly ran into disciplinary
>> >> trouble with his superiors, eventually leading to his court martial
>> >> and dismissal in 1812. This prompted his first book An Essay on Naval
>> >> Discipline (1813) a scathing critique of the brutal authoritarian
>> >> regime then current in the navy.
>> >> Entering Edinburgh University for study he later came to London in
>> >> 1815 and entered the utilitarian circle around Francis Place, Jeremy
>> >> Bentham and James Mill. With their support he spent the next five
>> >> years in a programme of travel and study around Europe which resulted,
>> >> inter alia, in a second book "Travels in North Germany" (1820).
>> >> After 3 years in Edinburgh, Hodgskin returned to London in 1823 as a
>> >> journalist. Influenced by, amongst others, Jean Baptiste Say, his
>> >> views on political economy had diverged from the utilitarian orthodoxy
>> >> of David Ricardo and James Mill. During the controversy around the
>> >> parliamentary acts to first legalise and then ban worker's
>> >> "combinations" Mill and Ricardo had been in favour of the ban whereas
>> >> Hodgskin supported the right to organise. Taking Ricardo's labour
>> >> theory of value he used it to denounce the appropriation of the most
>> >> part of value produced by the labour of industrial workers as
>> >> illegitimate. He propounded these views in a series of lectures at the
>> >> London Mechanics Institute where he debated with William Thompson with
>> >> whom he shared the critique of capitalist expropriation but not the
>> >> proposed remedy. The results of these lectures and debates he
>> >> published as "Labour Defended against the Claims of Capital" (1825),
>> >> "Popular Political Economy" (1827) and "Natural and Artificial Right
>> >> of Property Contrasted" (1832). The title of "Labour Defended" was a
>> >> jibe at James Mill's earlier "Commerce Defended" and signalled his
>> >> opposition to the latters taking sides with the capitalists against
>> >> their employees.
>> >> Though his criticism of Employers appropriation of the lion's share of
>> >> the value produced by their employees went on to influence subsequent
>> >> generations of socialists, including Karl Marx, Hodgskin's fundamental
>> >> Deist beliefs identified production and exchange based on the labour
>> >> theory of value (freed from the supposedly illegitimate expropriations
>> >> of rent, interest and owner's profits) as part of "natural right", the
>> >> divinely ordained proper relations of society contrasted to
>> >> "artificial" contrivances — the source of disharmonies and conflicts.
>> >> He rejected the proto-communism of William Thompson and Robert Owen by
>> >> the same appeal to "natural right".
>> >> In 1823 Hodgskin joined forces with Joseph Clinton Robinson in
>> >> founding the "Mechanics Magazine". In the October 1823 edition
>> >> Hodgskin and Francis Place wrote a manifesto for a Mechanics
>> >> Institute. This would be more than a technical school but a place
>> >> where practical studies could be combined with practical reflection
>> >> about the condition of society. The inaugural meeting to found the
>> >> Institute took place in 1823 but the idea was taken over by people of
>> >> less radical views concerned about Hodgskin's unorthodox economic
>> >> views including George Birkbeck a well known educator from Glasgow.
>> >> Despite his high profile in the agitated revolutionary times of the
>> >> 1820s, he retreated into the realm of Whig journalism after the Reform
>> >> Act 1832. He became an advocate of free trade and spent 15 years
>> >> writing for The Economist. He worked on the paper with its founder
>> >> James Wilson and with the young Herbert Spencer. Hodgskin viewed the
>> >> demise of the Corn Laws as the first step to the downfall of
>> >> government and his libertarian anarchism was regarded as too radical
>> >> by many of the liberals of the Anti-Corn Law League. He left the
>> >> Economist in 1857. He continued working as a journalist for the rest
>> >> of his life.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Michel Bauwens
>> >> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > hi kevin,
>> >> >
>> >> > i think your notion here of severable agreements is a breakthrough
>> >> > concept,
>> >> > and really hope you can elaborate, eventually for a blog entry,
>> >> >
>> >> > this may be the analogical concept to forking in the domain of
>> >> > physical
>> >> > resources,
>> >> >
>> >> > Michel
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Kevin Carson
>> >> > <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 8/6/10, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > yes, that sounds like a good transitional approach,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > by the way, I think that generally speaking, peer to peer differs
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >  moves
>> >> >> > away from the classic socialist approach by insisting on the
>> >> >> > maximum
>> >> >> > amount
>> >> >> > of personal sovereignty and control of the means of production ...
>> >> >> > i.e.
>> >> >> > it
>> >> >> > distrusts collective ownership that can be appropriated by
>> >> >> > institutions
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > the state, in favour of both individual and collectivist formst
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > under maximum control of the individual who can freely invest or
>> >> >> > withdraw
>> >> >> > his productive resources,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The individualist anarchists in America (and Hodgskin in England,
>> >> >> who
>> >> >> was something of a kindred spirit) were socialists who also took the
>> >> >> ultra-individualist stance you describe.  Their position was that
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> important thing was to remove monopoly rents on land and capital,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> then let free individuals cooperate (or not) as they saw fit.
>> >> >>  Josiah
>> >> >> Warren, in particular, the ancestor of the American individualist
>> >> >> movement, had a temperamental aversion to all forms of cooperation
>> >> >> that didn't involve completely severable interests (e.g., he thought
>> >> >> that in cooperative production each separate piece of machinery
>> >> >> should
>> >> >> be owned by one and only one person, with no joint shares in
>> >> >> anything).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Kevin Carson
>> >> >> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>> >> >> Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>> >> >> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>> >> >> The Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
>> >> >> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
>> >> >> Organization Theory:  A Libertarian Perspective
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
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>> >> >
>> >> > Think tank:
>> >> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
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>> >
>> > Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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