[p2p-research] against human rentals

Mon Aug 9 15:10:58 CEST 2010

the position of the left has always been that the "real freedom of all" is
the condition for the freedom of the individual, not in the sense of just
formal rights, but real freedom to undertake one's life, which necessitates
access to real resources, and this contrast with the liberal position that
comines formal rights with corporate ownership, and does not see a problem
that the majority is deprived of ownership of these means.

nevertheless, I think the stress has always been either on corporate private
initiative, and/or socialized means of production, but not the proposed
systems, like say distributism, which want to place the access and control
of productive resources at the individual level,

my sense is, at least for europe and the U.S., that given the perceived or
experienced failure of the socialized systems, and the combined failure of
the present system, that 'collectivist' approaches have become less
appealing, but that commons approaches, which do not 'dis-appropriate'
individuals, are more appealing ..

my feeling is that the emering p2p mentality is aligned to this shift,

Michel

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> I would say that personal freedom is very important in Europe.  Same
> with happiness.
>
> Possession has superseded ownership in many areas.
>
> There's lots to read on the subject.  There is a reason the Commons
> Conference is in Germany.  It's not easy to do such a thing in
> America.
>
> Commons are about individual access, too.
>
> A
>
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > thanks alex,
> >
> > it seems to me that at least in europe, the history of a non-collectivist
> > left has been mostly forgotten and deleted from the labour movement's
> > history,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hodgskin
> >> Breakthrough from the early 1800s!
> >>
> >> Thomas Hodgskin (b. 12 December 1787 Chatham, Kent, d. - 21 August
> >> 1869 Feltham, Middlesex) was an English socialist writer on political
> >> economy, critic of capitalism, free-market anarchist[1] and defender
> >> of free trade and early trade unions.
> >> Born of a father who worked in the Chatham Naval Dockyard, Hodgskin
> >> joined the navy at the age of 12. He rose rapidly through the ranks in
> >> the years of naval struggle with the French to the rank of first
> >> lieutenant. Following the naval defeat of the French the opportunities
> >> for advancement closed and Hodgskin increasingly ran into disciplinary
> >> trouble with his superiors, eventually leading to his court martial
> >> and dismissal in 1812. This prompted his first book An Essay on Naval
> >> Discipline (1813) a scathing critique of the brutal authoritarian
> >> regime then current in the navy.
> >> Entering Edinburgh University for study he later came to London in
> >> 1815 and entered the utilitarian circle around Francis Place, Jeremy
> >> Bentham and James Mill. With their support he spent the next five
> >> years in a programme of travel and study around Europe which resulted,
> >> inter alia, in a second book "Travels in North Germany" (1820).
> >> After 3 years in Edinburgh, Hodgskin returned to London in 1823 as a
> >> journalist. Influenced by, amongst others, Jean Baptiste Say, his
> >> views on political economy had diverged from the utilitarian orthodoxy
> >> of David Ricardo and James Mill. During the controversy around the
> >> parliamentary acts to first legalise and then ban worker's
> >> "combinations" Mill and Ricardo had been in favour of the ban whereas
> >> Hodgskin supported the right to organise. Taking Ricardo's labour
> >> theory of value he used it to denounce the appropriation of the most
> >> part of value produced by the labour of industrial workers as
> >> illegitimate. He propounded these views in a series of lectures at the
> >> London Mechanics Institute where he debated with William Thompson with
> >> whom he shared the critique of capitalist expropriation but not the
> >> proposed remedy. The results of these lectures and debates he
> >> published as "Labour Defended against the Claims of Capital" (1825),
> >> "Popular Political Economy" (1827) and "Natural and Artificial Right
> >> of Property Contrasted" (1832). The title of "Labour Defended" was a
> >> jibe at James Mill's earlier "Commerce Defended" and signalled his
> >> opposition to the latters taking sides with the capitalists against
> >> their employees.
> >> Though his criticism of Employers appropriation of the lion's share of
> >> the value produced by their employees went on to influence subsequent
> >> generations of socialists, including Karl Marx, Hodgskin's fundamental
> >> Deist beliefs identified production and exchange based on the labour
> >> theory of value (freed from the supposedly illegitimate expropriations
> >> of rent, interest and owner's profits) as part of "natural right", the
> >> divinely ordained proper relations of society contrasted to
> >> "artificial" contrivances — the source of disharmonies and conflicts.
> >> He rejected the proto-communism of William Thompson and Robert Owen by
> >> the same appeal to "natural right".
> >> In 1823 Hodgskin joined forces with Joseph Clinton Robinson in
> >> founding the "Mechanics Magazine". In the October 1823 edition
> >> Hodgskin and Francis Place wrote a manifesto for a Mechanics
> >> Institute. This would be more than a technical school but a place
> >> where practical studies could be combined with practical reflection
> >> about the condition of society. The inaugural meeting to found the
> >> Institute took place in 1823 but the idea was taken over by people of
> >> less radical views concerned about Hodgskin's unorthodox economic
> >> views including George Birkbeck a well known educator from Glasgow.
> >> Despite his high profile in the agitated revolutionary times of the
> >> 1820s, he retreated into the realm of Whig journalism after the Reform
> >> Act 1832. He became an advocate of free trade and spent 15 years
> >> writing for The Economist. He worked on the paper with its founder
> >> James Wilson and with the young Herbert Spencer. Hodgskin viewed the
> >> demise of the Corn Laws as the first step to the downfall of
> >> government and his libertarian anarchism was regarded as too radical
> >> by many of the liberals of the Anti-Corn Law League. He left the
> >> Economist in 1857. He continued working as a journalist for the rest
> >> of his life.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >> > hi kevin,
> >> >
> >> > i think your notion here of severable agreements is a breakthrough
> >> > concept,
> >> > and really hope you can elaborate, eventually for a blog entry,
> >> >
> >> > this may be the analogical concept to forking in the domain of
> physical
> >> > resources,
> >> >
> >> > Michel
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Kevin Carson
> >> > <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On 8/6/10, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > yes, that sounds like a good transitional approach,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > by the way, I think that generally speaking, peer to peer differs
> and
> >> >> >  moves
> >> >> > away from the classic socialist approach by insisting on the
> maximum
> >> >> > amount
> >> >> > of personal sovereignty and control of the means of production ...
> >> >> > i.e.
> >> >> > it
> >> >> > distrusts collective ownership that can be appropriated by
> >> >> > institutions
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > the state, in favour of both individual and collectivist formst
> that
> >> >> > are
> >> >> > under maximum control of the individual who can freely invest or
> >> >> > withdraw
> >> >> > his productive resources,
> >> >>
> >> >> The individualist anarchists in America (and Hodgskin in England, who
> >> >> was something of a kindred spirit) were socialists who also took the
> >> >> ultra-individualist stance you describe.  Their position was that the
> >> >> important thing was to remove monopoly rents on land and capital, and
> >> >> then let free individuals cooperate (or not) as they saw fit.  Josiah
> >> >> Warren, in particular, the ancestor of the American individualist
> >> >> movement, had a temperamental aversion to all forms of cooperation
> >> >> that didn't involve completely severable interests (e.g., he thought
> >> >> that in cooperative production each separate piece of machinery
> should
> >> >> be owned by one and only one person, with no joint shares in
> >> >> anything).
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Kevin Carson
> >> >> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
> >> >> Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
> >> >> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
> >> >> The Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
> >> >> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
> >> >> Organization Theory:  A Libertarian Perspective
> >> >>
> >> >>
> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> >>
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >
> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >
> >> > Think tank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > p2presearch mailing list
> >> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> > Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > p2presearch mailing list
> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20100809/8fc01eb8/attachment.html>