[p2p-research] The Production Bubble: Why Capitalism Withholds Solutions and Gets Away with It

Sat Aug 7 13:59:34 CEST 2010

one more way to clarify my point,

1) you have idealistic systems, in which he gut is repressed, and gut-like
violence is draped in high language, this would be true for both medieval
Europe, lots of present-day Thailand, and Stalinist Russia; these are
systems in which the unconscious is repressed

2) you have 'realistic systems', in which the gut is accepted, but also
glorified, this is neoliberalism; this system assume that the selfish gut
automatically leads to the social good (market theory)

3)  you have 'realistic systems', that recognize the diversity of the gut,
both its altruistic and selfish aspects, and attempts to find social systems
that minimize one and maximize the other, so that minimal harm is done to
other humans and the biosphere .. I see p2p in that latter category

On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> Fanciful, Michel, how you can ascribe gigantic swaths of multi-agent
> continental history to "petty" motivations.  I can only assume this is
> another reason you don't live here in lovely, wonderful, sweet
> smelling Europe.
>
> It's gay pride day in Amsterdam, today.  A bit rainy,but that won't
> stop the million or more visitors.  Is that a "petty" thing, to enjoy
> a parade?
>
> A
>
> On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > do you agree that there is a difference between:
> >
> > 1) knowing your gut and
> >
> > a) based on the contradictory tendencies of our gut, built in the right
> > nudges against the most destructive  behavior
> >
> > b) glorifying the worst part of our gut ('greed is good') and devising a
> > system that nudges us even more in that direction
> >
> > what you see as the socialist system by the way, was completely built
> around
> > such desires for petty advancement ...
> >
> > as far as I'm aware neither the amish or the tibetans have actually
> 'burnt
> > down the colonies' (have they?), but the hedge funders have nearly
> succeeded
> > in destroying our biosphere ...
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:26 PM, M. Fioretti <mfioretti at nexaima.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 15:18:19 PM -0400, Ryan Lanham
> >>> (rlanham1963 at gmail.com) wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Scarcity is a function (always) of incentives.  What most people on
> >>> > this list fail to try to understand is the psychology of incentives.
> >>> > Incentives are why utopian colonies always fail.
> >>>
> >>> Ryan,
> >>>
> >>> _if_ you feel like it, may I ask you to elaborate (separately?) on the
> >>> last two sentences above? I understand (I think) everything else you
> >>> said, but the part above makes me real curious.
> >>>
> >>> TIA,
> >>>        Marco
> >>>
> >>
> >> Hi Marco,
> >>
> >> I will try.
> >>
> >> There seems to be increasing evidence that, as apes, we care about
> caste,
> >> hierarchy, structure, relativity of reward and that these systems of
> reward
> >> and motivation are not to be reasoned away...they are in the bone.
> >>
> >> If this is true...if...then we must somehow come to terms with our own
> >> sense of desire.  We want.  We need.  We hope.  Intellectualize that
> away,
> >> and we become socialist robots devoid of our human desires...in Star
> Trek
> >> terms, we abandon our inner Klingon.  It will not be abandoned.
> >>
> >> For the Klingon in us is what makes sex power and joy and what makes
> >> cities vibrant and full of despair and dreams.  Kill the animal and AI
> has
> >> won in all the wrong ways.  The true AI will be emotional, devotional,
> >> wanting, passionate and hungry for experience, emotion, and experience.
> >>
> >> It is a strawman (as usual) to posit that the so-called neo-liberal
> >> transhumanist state leads to money-making robots talking to other
> >> accountant-like robots.  No.  The killers need to drink blood.  It is
> indeed
> >> the equilibrium seekers who expose their fear of their own humanity.  It
> is
> >> they who seek to be neutered.  To be sexless, emotionless, desireless
> monks
> >> lost in inner worlds of metaphysics because the real world is too
> emotional,
> >> too traumatic for them to bear.
> >>
> >> And so, we must know our gut.  We have to plumb passion if we are going
> to
> >> be peers.  We need to understand the tentative nature of our wants and
> the
> >> delicate balance of peace in a bar full of tail.
> >>
> >> Until we do that, until we realize that hierarchy and mud wrestling are
> in
> >> us like intestines and marrow, we're not on a good path.
> >>
> >> It is these passions set loose that kill the idealist and the utopian.
>  It
> >> is the Amish whore who burns the colony down.  It is the desirous monk
> who
> >> rises to command an army of Tibetans.  There is no abandoning these
> >> tendencies.  They are us.
> >>
> >> R.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> > Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > p2presearch mailing list
> > p2presearch at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20100807/61353233/attachment.html>