[p2p-research] Tyranny of Majority was "Why do we not choose Permaculture?"

Sun Aug 1 09:34:14 CEST 2010

Yes, you mentioned a couple weeks ago that you had started that.  I'm still
waiting for a second hand ebook, but I look forward to it.

That particular insight is extremely practical and true for most things.
 Something that is watched is increased or maintained.

This is often the rationale behind encouraging appreciation in a community
for good things.  It is an end in itself, to a degree.

My question then, again, is what are some of the ways that we communicate
how we are watching the "quality of life" commons or others, and
specifically ways that come off as alluding to each of our many roles in
civic engagement.

For example, if I say, "well, I find this to be a lovely day!" I would
obviously not be provoking an argument.

"Well, I find the quality of life to be so-so!"

A

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> just reading elinor ostrom's governing the commons ... from 1990
>
> but one of the important conclusions: no natural resource commons studied
> has ever depleted its environment ...
>
> On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In reading more pages on systems theory the last couple of weeks I have
>> been trying to see what I could learn about how behavior and attitudes
>> percolated through social systems.  I'm interested in decision making
>> processes in particular, and the simple spread of behavior, a common
>> research subject, is a sort of decision making.
>>
>> I offered no simple solutions in my email, but I did make note of some
>> directions I am looking in, and was wondering about what others have found.
>>
>> The processes of interacting with the environment all the way up to
>> delivering global goods are complicated, for sure, but it seems that we
>> don't have many "common" or well understood ways of beginning to discuss
>> these processes without getting into the issues or solutions.
>>
>> For example, a number of means exist to discuss interactions in production
>> processes, but we don't seem to get enough training in using these tools to
>> be able to use them to understand the system that touch us regularly.
>>
>> When it comes to something like "quality of life," a subject so vast as to
>> defy all real attempts to nail it down, we are still unable to discuss the
>> subject much less make decisions about it.
>>
>> We can speculate, sure...
>>
>> Have others found success with notation systems, or a particular language,
>> for diagramming complex system interactions?  Clarity around decision making
>> would be only one of many possibilities to come out of such skills, were
>> they more widespread.
>>
>> A
>>
>> A
>>  On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> HI Alex,
>>>
>>> I don't think this is a simple situation with a simple response,
>>>
>>> I still see citizenship as a step forward,
>>>
>>> the important issue is that not all communities are enligthened and
>>> national laws and international treaties set minimum standards ... would
>>> you accept that in your country some fundamental community re-introduces
>>> stoning for adultery, or would condemn to death same-sex couples belonging
>>> to its religious jurisdiction?
>>>
>>> so it necessary needs to a mix of different levels, not simple tailored
>>> legislation,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>   On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wonder how "quality of life" can be handled at all by majority rule.
>>>>  It may not be possible.
>>>>
>>>> I know I would prefer to have more granular control over laws and rules
>>>> that effect me.
>>>>
>>>> I recollect the arguments that say that if we don't care, as a people
>>>> (majority, all of us, you included) for those who can't care for themselves,
>>>> then what kind of people are we?
>>>>
>>>> This argument has been stretched pretty thinly as the banks are now the
>>>> poorest amongst us, pillars of capitalism that they are, and our majority
>>>> opinion doesn't count for much when it goes against what the elected
>>>> representatives say is right.
>>>>
>>>> How can standards for the care of children of activities that effect our
>>>> mutual environment be governed, then?
>>>>
>>>> I have enjoyed the idea of "bioregions" like watersheds as a beginning
>>>> type of governance area or jurisdiction, but much can be said about the kind
>>>> and quality of law or regulation that is passed and how it is enacted when
>>>> it is designed to improve or secure a potential lifestyle that has an impact
>>>> on others.
>>>>
>>>> A
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am trying to find out why our species has decided to move so very
>>>>> far away from local sufficiency toward a dangerous dependecy upon
>>>>> centralized production.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have the Land, Water and willing Workers, so what is the problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why don't we grow Almonds, Avocados and Olives, in our cities (where
>>>>> climates allow)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why are there not grape vines, berry bushes and spice plants in all
>>>>> the places we installed unproductive species?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there are some logistic problems we have overlooked and am
>>>>> trying to enumerate them so each can be addressed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please respond if any sound wrong or to add those that are missing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * GOVERNMENTS
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.) Taxation as our system of funding public works requires everyone
>>>>> in that jurisdiction pay for every project even if they are not
>>>>> interested.  It is the primary cause of the "Tyranny of the Majority".
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.) There are social mores against governments being truly productive.
>>>>>  Some may think food should be a public service, but those with enough
>>>>> would not agree - mostly because of problem #1.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3.) Even if a government were to attempt permaculture, the
>>>>> representatives would likely not see the benefits of owning the
>>>>> equipment and hiring the workers, and so would hire a private business
>>>>> to do the work anyway - and so we, the taxpayers who funded the
>>>>> project would likely be required to *buy* the products back from
>>>>> ourselves thereby being exposed to paying profit to those owners and
>>>>> would also loose the high-level control such as if subgroups wanted to
>>>>> avoid herbicides/pesticides, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * BUSINESSES
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.) Most businesses view everything in terms of Profit, so would not
>>>>> care about increasing local resilience but would instead weigh the
>>>>> decision on how much they could overcharge the customer.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.) The question would viewed as a choice as to whether the business
>>>>> should increase their diversity.  Most owners would likely find it a
>>>>> silly proposition as they see agriculture as a strictly separate
>>>>> occupation that has nothing to do with their core goals.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * INDIVIDUALS
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.) The owner does not have the time and skill to maintain these more
>>>>> sensitive organisms and the complex ecosystem they should enjoy.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.) The owner does not have the time and skill and equipment to
>>>>> harvest, process and store those products.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3.) There is usually "too much" of each of those products for a single
>>>>> owner, and so much of the harvest goes to waste, causing logistic
>>>>> problems of 'mess' and also some psychological trauma.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20100801/19849937/attachment.html>