[p2p-research] Tyranny of Majority was "Why do we not choose Permaculture?"

Sun Aug 1 09:30:29 CEST 2010

just reading elinor ostrom's governing the commons ... from 1990

but one of the important conclusions: no natural resource commons studied
has ever depleted its environment ...

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com> wrote:

> In reading more pages on systems theory the last couple of weeks I have
> been trying to see what I could learn about how behavior and attitudes
> percolated through social systems.  I'm interested in decision making
> processes in particular, and the simple spread of behavior, a common
> research subject, is a sort of decision making.
>
> I offered no simple solutions in my email, but I did make note of some
> directions I am looking in, and was wondering about what others have found.
>
> The processes of interacting with the environment all the way up to
> delivering global goods are complicated, for sure, but it seems that we
> don't have many "common" or well understood ways of beginning to discuss
> these processes without getting into the issues or solutions.
>
> For example, a number of means exist to discuss interactions in production
> processes, but we don't seem to get enough training in using these tools to
> be able to use them to understand the system that touch us regularly.
>
> When it comes to something like "quality of life," a subject so vast as to
> defy all real attempts to nail it down, we are still unable to discuss the
> subject much less make decisions about it.
>
> We can speculate, sure...
>
> Have others found success with notation systems, or a particular language,
> for diagramming complex system interactions?  Clarity around decision making
> would be only one of many possibilities to come out of such skills, were
> they more widespread.
>
> A
>
> A
>  On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> HI Alex,
>>
>> I don't think this is a simple situation with a simple response,
>>
>> I still see citizenship as a step forward,
>>
>> the important issue is that not all communities are enligthened and
>> national laws and international treaties set minimum standards ... would
>> you accept that in your country some fundamental community re-introduces
>> stoning for adultery, or would condemn to death same-sex couples belonging
>> to its religious jurisdiction?
>>
>> so it necessary needs to a mix of different levels, not simple tailored
>> legislation,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>   On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Alex Rollin <alex.rollin at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder how "quality of life" can be handled at all by majority rule.
>>>  It may not be possible.
>>>
>>> I know I would prefer to have more granular control over laws and rules
>>> that effect me.
>>>
>>> I recollect the arguments that say that if we don't care, as a people
>>> (majority, all of us, you included) for those who can't care for themselves,
>>> then what kind of people are we?
>>>
>>> This argument has been stretched pretty thinly as the banks are now the
>>> poorest amongst us, pillars of capitalism that they are, and our majority
>>> opinion doesn't count for much when it goes against what the elected
>>> representatives say is right.
>>>
>>> How can standards for the care of children of activities that effect our
>>> mutual environment be governed, then?
>>>
>>> I have enjoyed the idea of "bioregions" like watersheds as a beginning
>>> type of governance area or jurisdiction, but much can be said about the kind
>>> and quality of law or regulation that is passed and how it is enacted when
>>> it is designed to improve or secure a potential lifestyle that has an impact
>>> on others.
>>>
>>> A
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am trying to find out why our species has decided to move so very
>>>> far away from local sufficiency toward a dangerous dependecy upon
>>>> centralized production.
>>>>
>>>> We have the Land, Water and willing Workers, so what is the problem?
>>>>
>>>> Why don't we grow Almonds, Avocados and Olives, in our cities (where
>>>> climates allow)?
>>>>
>>>> Why are there not grape vines, berry bushes and spice plants in all
>>>> the places we installed unproductive species?
>>>>
>>>> I think there are some logistic problems we have overlooked and am
>>>> trying to enumerate them so each can be addressed.
>>>>
>>>> Please respond if any sound wrong or to add those that are missing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * GOVERNMENTS
>>>>
>>>> 1.) Taxation as our system of funding public works requires everyone
>>>> in that jurisdiction pay for every project even if they are not
>>>> interested.  It is the primary cause of the "Tyranny of the Majority".
>>>>
>>>> 2.) There are social mores against governments being truly productive.
>>>>  Some may think food should be a public service, but those with enough
>>>> would not agree - mostly because of problem #1.
>>>>
>>>> 3.) Even if a government were to attempt permaculture, the
>>>> representatives would likely not see the benefits of owning the
>>>> equipment and hiring the workers, and so would hire a private business
>>>> to do the work anyway - and so we, the taxpayers who funded the
>>>> project would likely be required to *buy* the products back from
>>>> ourselves thereby being exposed to paying profit to those owners and
>>>> would also loose the high-level control such as if subgroups wanted to
>>>> avoid herbicides/pesticides, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * BUSINESSES
>>>>
>>>> 1.) Most businesses view everything in terms of Profit, so would not
>>>> care about increasing local resilience but would instead weigh the
>>>> decision on how much they could overcharge the customer.
>>>>
>>>> 2.) The question would viewed as a choice as to whether the business
>>>> should increase their diversity.  Most owners would likely find it a
>>>> silly proposition as they see agriculture as a strictly separate
>>>> occupation that has nothing to do with their core goals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * INDIVIDUALS
>>>>
>>>> 1.) The owner does not have the time and skill to maintain these more
>>>> sensitive organisms and the complex ecosystem they should enjoy.
>>>>
>>>> 2.) The owner does not have the time and skill and equipment to
>>>> harvest, process and store those products.
>>>>
>>>> 3.) There is usually "too much" of each of those products for a single
>>>> owner, and so much of the harvest goes to waste, causing logistic
>>>> problems of 'mess' and also some psychological trauma.
>>>>
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>>
>>
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