[p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist terminology

Fri Apr 30 18:53:17 CEST 2010

I do. I think that the introduction of networks is reconfiguring the world entirely. Its speeding globalization and restructuring global power. I disagree however, that cognitive capitalism/cultural economy is a fetish or illusion. I think it is a new stage in capitalism that will require significant changes in education. But I would agree that the P2P vision you have is likely beyond the 'knowledge economy'. My only doubt is the time frame. I don't think its around the corner as you do. I think capitalism with adapt to the ecological crisis in front of us through innovation. The major reason I say this is simply that I don't believe humanity as a whole is anywhere near being culturally mature enough for communal shareholding. 

So I guess I would agree with the Marxist view of economic stages, but disagree that the final stage is communism. Unless by communism you mean stigmergic innovation (but it in that case I would jettison the baggage of the term). 

I am a techno-utopian, thats true. But I've never believed in the notion of 'humanism'. I find it a silly self-worshiping religion. 

D

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:11:55 +0700
From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist	terminology

I agree with what you say here, though knowing you, I think you are a great romantic yourself <g>

but yes, cultures and systems need to mature during a sizeable time, and political phase transitions come after, their level of violence a function of the failure of the older system to change through other means. If you look at the political revolutions at the end of feudalism, they took quite different features in different countries. I still need to read "The first european revolution" which says the final shift to a consolidated feudalism occured in a pan-european way in about 975.

Do you agree with me that a deep transvaluation is taking place now, similar to what occured at the end of the roman empire and feudalism, setting the stage for a system that will have quite different premises?

As you may know, my own notion of mutual reconfiguration of social classes is quite different from the marxist premise as well,

Michel

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Daniel Araya <levelsixmedia at hotmail.com> wrote:

It may be true Michel that Ryan and I have a similar 'cultural disposition' that we're both unconscious of. I concede that. There is a great deal of Marx's thinking that I admire. But my own subjective reasoning for my distaste for Marxism overall is simply that I'm not attracted to romanticism, whether economic (Marx), cultural (Nietzsche) or political (Rousseau). There is a kind of narcissism at the base of it that honestly repels me. I share your intuition that we will likely see a post-capitalist system shift at some point. And I might even concede that Marx had some unique vision of this shift that still gives us insight today. But I disagree that any economic shift in history comes about through class war, coercion or any other "cheap" alternative to cultural evolution. In my opinion, new economic systems emerge organically as cultures mature. If Marx had been authentic to his desire for an evolutionary model of economic change, I think he would have concluded this himself. 

Daniel

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:39:28 +0700
From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
To: p2presearch at listcultures.org

Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist	terminology

I understand ... I know Daniel quite well for having had him over a few times and staying at his place,

you and him share a very broadly similar worldview, which I would call social liberal ... and you're both northamerican

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:33 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

Michel, 

I must say I sympathize deeply with the tone Daniel is using.

Ryan

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Tere,

this is from a little dialogue on facebook,

perhaps you want to say something about your future vision and your choice of terminology?

couldn't find the beginning of the discussion, but you'll get the drift

Michel

Daniel Araya April 28 at 11:45pm 

Michel. New models are always appreciated even if they borrow from 'communism'. But a direct application-- its silly. 

Why do you continue to deny the wealth generated by capitalism and wax poetic about an abstract communism that exists no where. Have you read Don Quixote? 

Michel Bauwens April 29 at 12:07am 

Daniel: I gather neither you nor me actually read the book, so what are we talking about. As for me, I'm only talking about the real observable, already existing thing: the peer to peer dynamics online, and the commons of the physical world, not of which are abstract. So I'm wondering what you are referring to? 

Daniel Araya April 29 at 12:12am 

I'm talking about confusing p2p with communism. One is an emergent form (growing out of the real capacities of networks--- collective intelligence). The other is a romantic vision for a secular paradise of worker coops. They may be parallel but in my mind they're not the same.

Don't be offended. Just reacting to the liberal use of the word 'communism' in that wikiworld book. 

Michel Bauwens April 29 at 9:48am 

technically, p2p as a social mode is what alan page fiske calls communcal chareholding, i.e. exchange with a totality, it is not related to workers coop, which is currently just a different market modality, unless there would not be work for money exchange in the coop. as far as I can see Tere's is asking is how do we get from p2p in the immaterial world, to a system of worker coops. If that is your usage of communism (in old marxist terms, this is what technically would rather be socialism, i.e. the intermediary stage where there is still exchange, i.e. everyone gets rewarded according to effort. 

Daniel Araya April 29 at 10:07am 

Michel, you are humorless on this subject. The point is not "my interpretation" but the common understanding of a term loaded with generations of assumptions. It is not merely an empty signifier but comes with over a century of political contestation. Tere clearly uses the term communism to highlight Marxism not despite it. So its not some 'new road' he's pointing to but a mere restating of a well-worn gospel. Build a working an example of this utopia and I'm sure people will begin to take it seriously again. Until then... 

Michel Bauwens April 29 at 10:32am 

that is why I personally not use this terminology, because indeed it is so loaded, and certainly in the U.S., can only lead to misinterpretation 
-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

_______________________________________________
p2presearch mailing list
p2presearch at listcultures.org 

http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

-- 
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
P.O. Box 633
Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
Cayman Islands
(345) 916-1712

_______________________________________________
p2presearch mailing list
p2presearch at listcultures.org
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. See how.

_______________________________________________

p2presearch mailing list

p2presearch at listcultures.org

http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. 
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20100430/021ee5b0/attachment.html>