[p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist terminology

Ryan Lanham rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Fri Apr 30 18:28:49 CEST 2010 

Once again, I agree with all below.  Of the three, Nietzsche offends me
most...but the only Rousseau and Marx would be near finishers.

Ryan

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 6:31 AM, Daniel Araya <levelsixmedia at hotmail.com>wrote:

> It may be true Michel that Ryan and I have a similar 'cultural disposition'
> that we're both unconscious of. I concede that. There is a great deal of
> Marx's thinking that I admire. But my own subjective reasoning for my
> distaste for Marxism overall is simply that I'm not attracted to
> romanticism, whether economic (Marx), cultural (Nietzsche) or political
> (Rousseau). There is a kind of narcissism at the base of it that honestly
> repels me. I share your intuition that we will likely see a post-capitalist
> system shift at some point. And I might even concede that Marx had some
> unique vision of this shift that still gives us insight today. But I
> disagree that any economic shift in history comes about through class war,
> coercion or any other "cheap" alternative to cultural evolution. In my
> opinion, new economic systems emerge organically as cultures mature. If Marx
> had been authentic to his desire for an evolutionary model of economic
> change, I think he would have concluded this himself.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:39:28 +0700
> From: michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>
> To: p2presearch at listcultures.org
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Concerning wikiworld and its use of socialist
> terminology
>
>   I understand ... I know Daniel quite well for having had him over a few
> times and staying at his place,
>
> you and him share a very broadly similar worldview, which I would call
> social liberal ... and you're both northamerican
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:33 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> Michel,
>
> I must say I sympathize deeply with the tone Daniel is using.
>
> Ryan
>
>   On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Michel Bauwens <
> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Hi Tere,
>
> this is from a little dialogue on facebook,
>
> perhaps you want to say something about your future vision and your choice
> of terminology?
>
> couldn't find the beginning of the discussion, but you'll get the drift
>
> Michel
>
>
>  *Daniel Araya* <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>* *April 28 at 11:45pm
>  Michel. New models are always appreciated even if they borrow from
> 'communism'. But a direct application-- its silly.
>
> Why do you continue to deny the wealth generated by capitalism and wax
> poetic about an abstract communism that exists no where. Have you read Don
> Quixote?
>    <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
>  *Michel Bauwens* <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>* *April 29 at 12:07am
>
>  Daniel: I gather neither you nor me actually read the book, so what are
> we talking about. As for me, I'm only talking about the real observable,
> already existing thing: the peer to peer dynamics online, and the commons of
> the physical world, not of which are abstract. So I'm wondering what you are
> referring to?
>    <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>
>  *Daniel Araya* <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>* *April 29 at 12:12am
>  I'm talking about confusing p2p with communism. One is an emergent form
> (growing out of the real capacities of networks--- collective intelligence).
> The other is a romantic vision for a secular paradise of worker coops. They
> may be parallel but in my mind they're not the same.
>
> Don't be offended. Just reacting to the liberal use of the word 'communism'
> in that wikiworld book.
>    <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
>  *Michel Bauwens* <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>* *April 29 at 9:48am
>  technically, p2p as a social mode is what alan page fiske calls communcal
> chareholding, i.e. exchange with a totality, it is not related to workers
> coop, which is currently just a different market modality, unless there
> would not be work for money exchange in the coop. as far as I can see Tere's
> is asking is how do we get from p2p in the immaterial world, to a system of
> worker coops. If that is your usage of communism (in old marxist terms, this
> is what technically would rather be socialism, i.e. the intermediary stage
> where there is still exchange, i.e. everyone gets rewarded according to
> effort.
>    <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>
>  *Daniel Araya* <http://www.facebook.com/dezuanni>* *April 29 at 10:07am
>  Michel, you are humorless on this subject. The point is not "my
> interpretation" but the common understanding of a term loaded with
> generations of assumptions. It is not merely an empty signifier but comes
> with over a century of political contestation. Tere clearly uses the term
> communism to highlight Marxism not despite it. So its not some 'new road'
> he's pointing to but a mere restating of a well-worn gospel. Build a working
> an example of this utopia and I'm sure people will begin to take it
> seriously again. Until then...
>    <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=528245547>
>  *Michel Bauwens* <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=528245547>* *April
> 29 at 10:32am
>  that is why I personally not use this terminology, because indeed it is
> so loaded, and certainly in the U.S., can only lead to misinterpretation
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
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>
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> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
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> (345) 916-1712
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> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
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-- 
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
P.O. Box 633
Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
Cayman Islands
(345) 916-1712
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