[p2p-research] It's the Economy, Stupid—But Not in Britain

Wed Apr 28 18:12:40 CEST 2010

there must definitely be soul-searching, and most Greek people have
comparatively low wages already, if they have a job,

however, the neoliberal strategy you propose has been tried many times, and
failed miserably, while those that refused, like Malaysia after the 99
financial crisis, thrived,

so I don't think that entering in a death spiral of cuts in the social wage,
would have any benefit but destroying the country further,

I suggest that they do not pay back the usury debts to high finance, like
the Argentinians did, and create sovereign currency that goes directly into
the productive economy, creating a positive feedback loop,

I'm am also piqued by your calling the thai democracy movement evil,

why would you deny democratic rights in thailand?

please note that the protesters were very peaceful for 6 weeks, unitl the
massacre of April 10

I hope you do not believe the propaganda that they shot themselves, think of
it, what are the historical precedents for social movements engineering
their own repression and death? Don't you think it's more likely that the
forensic evidence of the policy is correct, i.e. they were army bullets

were the people in Tiananmen also evil, the U.S. civil rights movements, the
abolitionists

please note that alll the countries you say you admire, i.e. scandinavian
countries, are predicated on successfull social struggles by labour and
social movements, consolidated in participatory democratic institutions

why would you deny this to a country in SE Asia?

Michel

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Michel,
>
> Those who have worked hard in Greece, who have not gamed the system for
> easy days at high wages, have my sincerest sympathies.  They have been
> robbed by their countrymen who stole their economy from them.  Mostly they
> have been robbed by politicians who failed to take decisive cuts so as to
> stay in office...instead opting to give high wages to old people and
> unproductive people.  There is simply no future in that...now or anytime
> soon.
>
> I hate the injustices of capitalism as much as anyone.  But people must
> demonstrate a value.  Yes, there needs to be a basic level of human dignity,
> etc., but that is not a middle class European life for all when nothing is
> contributed.
>
> Somehow the left must be made to understand that there are no free lunches.
>  The right must be made to understand that they capacity to take all the
> lunches is not justification for doing so.  I don't think the rich robbed
> Greece so much as the wasteful and unproductive have robbed it.  I
> sympathize with those who are not so...but too often those persons are
> already working in Amsterdam, London, or Berlin.  It will be more so in that
> direction.  What the country needs now is soul searching about how to
> rebuild, pay the debt, cut off the high wages for low productivity, and by
> doing these things, how to enter the world economy again.  It will be
> painful, but there is no other feasible alternative but severe poverty.  If
> they choose to drop out...they will have 40 years of Eastern European like
> misery.
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> Greece is showing the way in the way you describe, if they listen to the
>> IMF and enter the death spiral,
>>
>> they could, if they'd be more imaginative, choose the way out of
>> Argentinia and rebound (see Ellen Brown's proposals), but that seems
>> unlikely,
>>
>> stagnation with all the money going to the wealthy DOES not seem an
>> achievement to me, but indeed better than this phase, but people welfare
>> instead of corporate welfare, would probably have resulted in a more
>> thriving economy, but here I go again defending capitalism against someone
>> who is now even more sanguine about its disappearance than I am ... how the
>> tables have turned!!
>>
>> The failure to assist our greek brothers and sisters will unfortunately
>> mean the death of Europe, which personally saddens me,
>>
>> I think though that 'paying people for nothing' is not what happened in
>> Greece, where you have a hard working people, as far as I can ascertain,
>>
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>   On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Michel,
>>>
>>> Curious as to how Greece is showing the way.
>>>
>>> They will be impoverished by the lies of their politicians.  There is no
>>> way for them to default and to continue on as a serious economy.  As such,
>>> their talent will leave and they will be left with old and unskilled poor
>>> people.
>>>
>>> Spain is next.  Portugal is already dead.
>>>
>>> The question is whether Germany wants to bail out these nations and risk
>>> its own default.  It seems they want to protect the Euro.
>>>
>>> Stagnant wages since 1980 is an achievement...not a failure.  What comes
>>> ahead is decline in standards for those nations that have wasted billions on
>>> paying people for nothing and in not building quality education systems and
>>> competitive infrastructures.  Capitalism may be dying, but it is still
>>> dominant.  Those who slip out of it first will suffer most.
>>>
>>> Ryan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> As John Robb says, we have reached stage 2 of the post-meltdown period,
>>>>
>>>> 1) phase 1: banks bail-outs with public money leading to huge public
>>>> deficits
>>>>
>>>> 2) phase 2: a 'sea of sovereign defaults'
>>>>
>>>> Neoliberalism was a catastrophe, i.e. wage and income stagnation since
>>>> 1980, but extreme neoliberalism will be a magnitude greater .. drops in
>>>> living standards from 20 to 40%, our greek brothers and sisters are showing
>>>> the way, The era of corporate welfare begun in 1980 is now going to life
>>>> support, and emergency services are very very expensive ...
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>   On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:00 AM, Ryan <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  "London the most unequal city it the world"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Sent to you by Ryan via Google Reader:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  It's the Economy, Stupid—But Not in Britain<http://bigthink.com/ideas/19820>
>>>>> via Big Think <http://bigthink.com/> by seddonm at verizon.net (Mark
>>>>> Seddon) on 4/27/10
>>>>>
>>>>> Here then is the hidden truth that none of the established political
>>>>> parties will tell the electorate in this, the penultimate week in what is
>>>>> fast proving to be one of the most unpredictable General Elections in modern
>>>>> times. Whichever party is elected, or whatever coalition may have to be
>>>>> assembled, the respected and independent Institute for Fiscal Studies say
>>>>> that deep public expenditure cuts—of between £47 Billion to £56 Billion—will
>>>>> have to be made over the next four-year cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Loosely translated, this means that Britain is about to enter into a
>>>>> period of austerity not witnessed since the OPEC-induced economic meltdown
>>>>> of the 1980s. But Britain will enter this new age of austerity with add-on
>>>>> handicaps. For one, the gap between rich and poor has not been this great
>>>>> since Victorian times. London is now the most unequal city in the Western
>>>>> World. Yes, that means London is more divided and unequal than New York. To
>>>>> this may be added the unpalatable truth that our manufacturing base is
>>>>> wizened, and our industrial base virtually disappeared. And just before we
>>>>> move on from this cocktail of gloom, Britain’s North Sea Oil is about to run
>>>>> out, and the banking crisis has left the de-regulated City of London reeling
>>>>> like a Highland dancer.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the heads and hearts, most Britons know this to be true. They also
>>>>> understand that they, rather than the greedy bankers or many of the
>>>>> tax-avoiding, money-laundering super-wealthy, are about to catch it in the
>>>>> neck. Not surprisingly, the main political parties who are keen to paint
>>>>> themselves as representing “hope over fear” have manifestly misread the
>>>>> national mood, which veers from contempt to outright fury.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hence the fluidity in the polls, most of which have some pecuniary
>>>>> attachment to a vested interest allied to various press barons. Although
>>>>> there has been at least a degree of consistency over the fact that the first
>>>>> televised debate put the least unsullied of the political leaders, Nick
>>>>> Clegg and his Liberal Democrats, in the lead. But overall the Conservatives
>>>>> just have it, followed by the Liberal Democrats, with Labour—the ruling
>>>>> party—in third place, potentially facing a squeeze.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the main parties have only one more week of trying to keep the
>>>>> lid on the great debate that should have been taking place—the economy—my
>>>>> guess is that the Conservatives will claw back some support, as voter begin
>>>>> to fret over what a “hung Parliament” and a coalition Government of back
>>>>> door deals might mean in practice. My prediction, for what it is worth, is
>>>>> that the Conservative will achieve a small overall majority, Labour will be
>>>>> reduced to its heartlands, the Liberal Democrats will do well and there will
>>>>> be some major local upsets, not least in Buckingham where I live. Here the
>>>>> Speaker of the House of Commons, sullied by his expense claims could yet go
>>>>> down in flames.
>>>>>
>>>>> But if I am wrong, and no overall party emerges the winner, then it
>>>>> could be partly due to the fact that all three will have ignored that famous
>>>>> dictum from President Bill Clinton: “It’s the economy, stupid!”
>>>>>
>>>>> Topics: Politics & Policy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Things you can do from here:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>>>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan Lanham
>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>> P.O. Box 633
>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>> Cayman Islands
>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

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