[p2p-research] [OK] Re: [VBbuilders] Why and how work together?

Wed Apr 21 03:39:54 CEST 2010

Sam Rose's response to these questions make a ton of sense to me, and I
trust Forward Foundation's expertise to build the appropriate technology.

Any upgrades to P2P infrastructure should be done with his approaches in
mind.

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> HI matt,
>
> you say: Map people, groups, goals, strategies, and resource and their
> relationships using standard data formats and a distributed database. (a lot
> of work has already been done on this across a number of the participants
> here)
>
> we're using open source wiki's and blogs essentially, which I think work on
> these principles
>
> twitter and facebook are used, for their reach, not for gathering info,
> that's a political decision,
>
> that leaves the status of delicious .. because of its overriding ease of
> use ..
>
> what's missing is an open source collectivising/networking of the people
> around the effort ..
>
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Matt Cooperrider <
> mattcooperrider at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's a great question Andrius, and one worth answering.
>>
>> But it's way too big a question for one person to answer. Would folks on
>> this list first try to answer this question instead?:
>>
>> *** What do we need to do in order to be able to answer the question "why
>> and how work together?" ***
>>
>> Here's mine:
>>
>> Map people, groups, goals, strategies, and resource and their
>> relationships using standard data formats and a distributed database. (a lot
>> of work has already been done on this across a number of the participants
>> here)
>>
>> - Matt
>>
>>   On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>   I'm equally unsure that attacking people in person who have put much
>>> effort in building a broader global movement (franz, sam, alex) is really
>>> helpful, and also, I think human ego precludes everybody following the same
>>> movement, whether it is andrius' or p2p-f or whatever,
>>>
>>> so it is looking for commonalities in our approaches, looking for common
>>> needs, and technology proceeds from that, not the other way around,
>>>
>>> each of our approaches appeals to different personalities and segments of
>>> people, though of course, historical events and sudden scale-explosion of a
>>> particular initiative, will eventually coalesce forces into particular
>>> social organisations, but p2p, broadly considered, is still too emergent and
>>> ahead of its time to achieve such scale.
>>>
>>> So where we are is with this flourishing of myriad initiatives, each
>>> trying to re-invent the wheel and duplicating efforts,
>>>
>>> BUT, we can use each other's differential strengths to rally around
>>> certain initiatives for certain goals, and around others for other goals,
>>>
>>> people who are spiritually inclined would join andrius, those interested
>>> in building a knowledge commons would rally around the p2p-foundation (if I
>>> had my wish <g>), and those with tech-platform ideas around sam's forward
>>> foundation,
>>>
>>> at this stage, this is unavoidable,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Mark Petz <ravenwyn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I see here Andrius exposing his thoughts openly. BUT I see that can be
>>>> seen as divisive and argumentative by some. I think that this call for
>>>> communities working together is actually a reflection of what we want in
>>>> real life.
>>>>
>>>> Luckily I have a community where at times I can play a leadership rôle
>>>> and at others a supporting rôle. Pispala is good that way with solidarity a
>>>> part of how we are. I urge any of you to come and spend some time here with
>>>> projects I can help you find and you can see how that culture works.
>>>>
>>>> Annette is doing this right now.
>>>>
>>>> Markus
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, <ms at ms.lt> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm glad for Franz Nahrada's and other letters at Global Villages
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/globalvillages/ in response to the
>>>>> closing
>>>>> down of the free-of-charge Ning services and what we might do next.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wish that:
>>>>> * We organize around people who have demonstrated successful leadership
>>>>> as
>>>>> networkers working openly, whether its Suresh Fernando (Open Kollab),
>>>>> Tiffany Von Emmel (Dreamfish), myself (Minciu Sodas), Michel Bauwens
>>>>> (P2P
>>>>> Foundation), etc.   And actually double check what has been successful.
>>>>> So, for example, our Pyramid of Peace http://www.pyramidofpeace.netwas
>>>>> undeniably successful.  Franz Nahrada is a key person at Minciu Sodas,
>>>>> but
>>>>> not a "hub" for "working openly", rather a person who destructively
>>>>> "compartmentalizes" activity, which is to say, works in a closed,
>>>>> untransparent manner.  Sam Rose is less of a "hub" and Alex Rollins
>>>>> even
>>>>> less so.  How can we make progress if we don't acknowledge merit?
>>>>> * We organize around social goals - for example, I'm interested in an
>>>>> "economy of dreams".  Suresh (and Janet Feldman!) is interested in how
>>>>> to
>>>>> organize millions of people to tackle big problems like world poverty.
>>>>> Tiffany Von Emmel is interested in a new kind of work cooperative.
>>>>> Whereas Franz was interested in Ning and Sam is interested in Elgg and
>>>>> Alex in Drupal.  I think that's backwards and unhelpful.
>>>>> * Let's organize around existing groups.  Tiffany already has an Elgg
>>>>> site
>>>>> running at http://dreamfish.com  Why do we need more Elgg sites?  Or
>>>>> why
>>>>> can't we build around existing ones in a more general way?  Why can't
>>>>> we
>>>>> build on existing software teams like Dreamfish's?  Why couldn't we
>>>>> build
>>>>> a team for Minciu Sodas, there was such need? I was very disturbed when
>>>>> Franz walked away from years of free service I provided - without any
>>>>> consultation - just set up a new server with Ralf - and what has he
>>>>> gained?  Or pays 3,000 EUR per year to closed version of ProWiki, why?
>>>>> Why aren't we trying to share resources? (And thank you to Franz for
>>>>> sharing in many other ways, I recently stayed 6 weeks with him in
>>>>> Vienna.)
>>>>> * Let's look at technologies and see if there's any examples that
>>>>> actually
>>>>> encourage us.  I can't think of a single Drupal website that impresses
>>>>> me
>>>>> as a community.  Nor a Ning or Elgg site for that matter.  Certainly
>>>>> none
>>>>> as strong as the Minciu Sodas community, which isn't all that strong.
>>>>> * What are our personal goals, values, questions, concerns,
>>>>> accountability, etc.?  Why are we wasting time with people who offer
>>>>> "help" when we have no idea of their own dreams, values, endeavors,
>>>>> quests
>>>>> nor they of ours?  That's why I believe it's important to start with a
>>>>> cultural commitment as I'm trying to with "12 Questions"
>>>>> http://www.12questions.org
>>>>> * Let's make a technology strategy that can support a culture.  In a
>>>>> Facebook/Twitter world it's no longer possible to develop a culture
>>>>> through venues, there's no reason for people to be loyal to an online
>>>>> space.  So the cultural commitment has to be I imagine a cultural code
>>>>> but
>>>>> not a set of venues.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm very troubled that leadership is offered without credibility, and
>>>>> that
>>>>> people like myself who have demonstrated credibility are not supported.
>>>>> How can we have a meaningful network then?
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrius
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrius Kulikauskas
>>>>> Minciu Sodas
>>>>> http://www.ms.lt
>>>>> ms at ms.lt
>>>>> +370 699 30003
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > I agree with Michel and Alex on what Michel talks about below. We can
>>>>> > discuss and plan first, then choose tools and build together. Makes
>>>>> > sense to me.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> I'm personally a least effort guy, but that mostly because I'm
>>>>> >> overextended
>>>>> >> myself,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> the first thing is asking ourselves, but what it is for?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> as i said, the social features and threading were the added value,
>>>>> but
>>>>> >> otherwise, the Ning site underperformed, and I was the only one
>>>>> taking
>>>>> >> care
>>>>> >> of admin tasks (but thanks to sepp especially for his forum articles
>>>>> >> which
>>>>> >> attracteda lot of discussion)
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> personally, I won't necessarily miss Ning that much, but of course,
>>>>> >> would be
>>>>> >> happy for others to really build the p2p foundation as a movement,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> this is what is appealing in alex' proposals, to devise a 3-year
>>>>> >> strategy
>>>>> >> for movement building and funding,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I'm of course really for it, but it is beyond my individual effort,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> what I'm doing with Sam, through civicCRM is devising a mailing list
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> our
>>>>> >> sympathizers, for some more specialized outreach purposes
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Michel
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>>> >>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>> > Hi Franz,
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > if you want to know what the p2p network is trying to find as
>>>>> >>> solutions,
>>>>> >>> > you
>>>>> >>> > can talk to Sam, who had some proposals for us, and we're working
>>>>> on
>>>>> >>> > them,
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > Michel
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> My suggestion was that we can use ELGG http://elgg.org/ as a
>>>>> >>> replacement for Ning
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> There's currently lots of discussion, offers and ideas at
>>>>> >>> p2presearch at listcultures.org as well, mostly centered around
>>>>> Drupal.
>>>>> >>> Drupal's great, but I still stick by my suggestion and offer of
>>>>> ELGG
>>>>> >>> as the best 1 to 1 replacement for Ning, requiring the least amount
>>>>> of
>>>>> >>> effort.
>>>>> >>> --
>>>>> >>> --
>>>>> >>> Sam Rose
>>>>> >>> Forward Foundation
>>>>> >>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>> >>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>> >>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>> >>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> >>> http://forwardfound.org
>>>>> >>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>> >>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>> >>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>> >>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>> >>> http://notanemployee.net
>>>>> >>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>>> >>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>> >>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>> Think
>>>>> >> thank:
>>>>> >> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>>> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Sam Rose
>>>>> > Forward Foundation
>>>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> > http://forwardfound.org
>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>> > http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>> > http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>> > http://notanemployee.net
>>>>> > http://communitywiki.org
>>>>> > http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>> > ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Videobridgebuilders mailing list
>>>>> > Videobridgebuilders at globalvillages.org
>>>>> > http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Videobridgebuilders mailing list
>>>>> Videobridgebuilders at globalvillages.org
>>>>> http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>   This is a message from the OpenKollab Google Group located at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/openkollab?hl=en
>>> To post to this group, send email to openkollab at googlegroups.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Cooperrider
>> Strategic Account Manager, Collabforge pty ltd
>> collaboration ~ mass collaboration ~ social software
>> + 61 (0) 468 954 779 ~ 239 Rathdowne St, Carlton, Melbourne 3053
>> collabforge.com ~ twitter.com/mattcoop
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>  --
> This is a message from the OpenKollab Google Group located at
> http://groups.google.com/group/openkollab?hl=en
> To post to this group, send email to openkollab at googlegroups.com
>

-- 
Matt Cooperrider
Strategic Account Manager, Collabforge pty ltd
collaboration ~ mass collaboration ~ social software
+ 61 (0) 468 954 779 ~ 239 Rathdowne St, Carlton, Melbourne 3053
collabforge.com ~ twitter.com/mattcoop
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20100421/155c22ce/attachment.html>