[p2p-research] [OK] Re: [VBbuilders] Why and how work together?

Wed Apr 21 02:19:13 CEST 2010

Hi Michel

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> HI matt,
>
> you say: Map people, groups, goals, strategies, and resource and their
> relationships using standard data formats and a distributed database. (a lot
> of work has already been done on this across a number of the participants
> here)
>
> we're using open source wiki's and blogs essentially, which I think work on
> these principles
>

One of of our (solvable) problems is that the data is not distributed,
really. It is in mini-silos in each community (or people are not aware
of the affordances for data portability)

We've done some preliminary work on this with
http://code.google.com/p/knowledge-commons/  there is much more work
to be done. If people in the community would fund even a modest amount
of work, we could really do some spectacular stuff with Knowledge
Commons (beyond just distributing data)

> twitter and facebook are used, for their reach, not for gathering info,
> that's a political decision,
>
> that leaves the status of delicious .. because of its overriding ease of use
> ..
>
> what's missing is an open source collectivising/networking of the people
> around the effort ..
>

Creating inter-operable distributed data infrastructures can make
where you place your data irrelevant over time. We would mirror and
archive (much as internet archive is doing) but also make available in
future applications when useful.

Again, if the community would fund this, we (Forward Foundation) would
build it, and release it.

> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Matt Cooperrider
> <mattcooperrider at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's a great question Andrius, and one worth answering.
>>
>> But it's way too big a question for one person to answer. Would folks on
>> this list first try to answer this question instead?:
>>
>> *** What do we need to do in order to be able to answer the question "why
>> and how work together?" ***
>>
>> Here's mine:
>>
>> Map people, groups, goals, strategies, and resource and their
>> relationships using standard data formats and a distributed database. (a lot
>> of work has already been done on this across a number of the participants
>> here)
>>
>> - Matt
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm equally unsure that attacking people in person who have put much
>>> effort in building a broader global movement (franz, sam, alex) is really
>>> helpful, and also, I think human ego precludes everybody following the same
>>> movement, whether it is andrius' or p2p-f or whatever,
>>>
>>> so it is looking for commonalities in our approaches, looking for common
>>> needs, and technology proceeds from that, not the other way around,
>>>
>>> each of our approaches appeals to different personalities and segments of
>>> people, though of course, historical events and sudden scale-explosion of a
>>> particular initiative, will eventually coalesce forces into particular
>>> social organisations, but p2p, broadly considered, is still too emergent and
>>> ahead of its time to achieve such scale.
>>>
>>> So where we are is with this flourishing of myriad initiatives, each
>>> trying to re-invent the wheel and duplicating efforts,
>>>
>>> BUT, we can use each other's differential strengths to rally around
>>> certain initiatives for certain goals, and around others for other goals,
>>>
>>> people who are spiritually inclined would join andrius, those interested
>>> in building a knowledge commons would rally around the p2p-foundation (if I
>>> had my wish <g>), and those with tech-platform ideas around sam's forward
>>> foundation,
>>>
>>> at this stage, this is unavoidable,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Mark Petz <ravenwyn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I see here Andrius exposing his thoughts openly. BUT I see that can be
>>>> seen as divisive and argumentative by some. I think that this call for
>>>> communities working together is actually a reflection of what we want in
>>>> real life.
>>>>
>>>> Luckily I have a community where at times I can play a leadership rôle
>>>> and at others a supporting rôle. Pispala is good that way with solidarity a
>>>> part of how we are. I urge any of you to come and spend some time here with
>>>> projects I can help you find and you can see how that culture works.
>>>>
>>>> Annette is doing this right now.
>>>>
>>>> Markus
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, <ms at ms.lt> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm glad for Franz Nahrada's and other letters at Global Villages
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/globalvillages/ in response to the
>>>>> closing
>>>>> down of the free-of-charge Ning services and what we might do next.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wish that:
>>>>> * We organize around people who have demonstrated successful leadership
>>>>> as
>>>>> networkers working openly, whether its Suresh Fernando (Open Kollab),
>>>>> Tiffany Von Emmel (Dreamfish), myself (Minciu Sodas), Michel Bauwens
>>>>> (P2P
>>>>> Foundation), etc.   And actually double check what has been successful.
>>>>> So, for example, our Pyramid of Peace http://www.pyramidofpeace.net was
>>>>> undeniably successful.  Franz Nahrada is a key person at Minciu Sodas,
>>>>> but
>>>>> not a "hub" for "working openly", rather a person who destructively
>>>>> "compartmentalizes" activity, which is to say, works in a closed,
>>>>> untransparent manner.  Sam Rose is less of a "hub" and Alex Rollins
>>>>> even
>>>>> less so.  How can we make progress if we don't acknowledge merit?
>>>>> * We organize around social goals - for example, I'm interested in an
>>>>> "economy of dreams".  Suresh (and Janet Feldman!) is interested in how
>>>>> to
>>>>> organize millions of people to tackle big problems like world poverty.
>>>>> Tiffany Von Emmel is interested in a new kind of work cooperative.
>>>>> Whereas Franz was interested in Ning and Sam is interested in Elgg and
>>>>> Alex in Drupal.  I think that's backwards and unhelpful.
>>>>> * Let's organize around existing groups.  Tiffany already has an Elgg
>>>>> site
>>>>> running at http://dreamfish.com  Why do we need more Elgg sites?  Or
>>>>> why
>>>>> can't we build around existing ones in a more general way?  Why can't
>>>>> we
>>>>> build on existing software teams like Dreamfish's?  Why couldn't we
>>>>> build
>>>>> a team for Minciu Sodas, there was such need? I was very disturbed when
>>>>> Franz walked away from years of free service I provided - without any
>>>>> consultation - just set up a new server with Ralf - and what has he
>>>>> gained?  Or pays 3,000 EUR per year to closed version of ProWiki, why?
>>>>> Why aren't we trying to share resources? (And thank you to Franz for
>>>>> sharing in many other ways, I recently stayed 6 weeks with him in
>>>>> Vienna.)
>>>>> * Let's look at technologies and see if there's any examples that
>>>>> actually
>>>>> encourage us.  I can't think of a single Drupal website that impresses
>>>>> me
>>>>> as a community.  Nor a Ning or Elgg site for that matter.  Certainly
>>>>> none
>>>>> as strong as the Minciu Sodas community, which isn't all that strong.
>>>>> * What are our personal goals, values, questions, concerns,
>>>>> accountability, etc.?  Why are we wasting time with people who offer
>>>>> "help" when we have no idea of their own dreams, values, endeavors,
>>>>> quests
>>>>> nor they of ours?  That's why I believe it's important to start with a
>>>>> cultural commitment as I'm trying to with "12 Questions"
>>>>> http://www.12questions.org
>>>>> * Let's make a technology strategy that can support a culture.  In a
>>>>> Facebook/Twitter world it's no longer possible to develop a culture
>>>>> through venues, there's no reason for people to be loyal to an online
>>>>> space.  So the cultural commitment has to be I imagine a cultural code
>>>>> but
>>>>> not a set of venues.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm very troubled that leadership is offered without credibility, and
>>>>> that
>>>>> people like myself who have demonstrated credibility are not supported.
>>>>> How can we have a meaningful network then?
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrius
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrius Kulikauskas
>>>>> Minciu Sodas
>>>>> http://www.ms.lt
>>>>> ms at ms.lt
>>>>> +370 699 30003
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > I agree with Michel and Alex on what Michel talks about below. We can
>>>>> > discuss and plan first, then choose tools and build together. Makes
>>>>> > sense to me.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> I'm personally a least effort guy, but that mostly because I'm
>>>>> >> overextended
>>>>> >> myself,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> the first thing is asking ourselves, but what it is for?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> as i said, the social features and threading were the added value,
>>>>> >> but
>>>>> >> otherwise, the Ning site underperformed, and I was the only one
>>>>> >> taking
>>>>> >> care
>>>>> >> of admin tasks (but thanks to sepp especially for his forum articles
>>>>> >> which
>>>>> >> attracteda lot of discussion)
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> personally, I won't necessarily miss Ning that much, but of course,
>>>>> >> would be
>>>>> >> happy for others to really build the p2p foundation as a movement,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> this is what is appealing in alex' proposals, to devise a 3-year
>>>>> >> strategy
>>>>> >> for movement building and funding,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I'm of course really for it, but it is beyond my individual effort,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> what I'm doing with Sam, through civicCRM is devising a mailing list
>>>>> >> of
>>>>> >> our
>>>>> >> sympathizers, for some more specialized outreach purposes
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Michel
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>>> >>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>> > Hi Franz,
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > if you want to know what the p2p network is trying to find as
>>>>> >>> solutions,
>>>>> >>> > you
>>>>> >>> > can talk to Sam, who had some proposals for us, and we're working
>>>>> >>> > on
>>>>> >>> > them,
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > Michel
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> My suggestion was that we can use ELGG http://elgg.org/ as a
>>>>> >>> replacement for Ning
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> There's currently lots of discussion, offers and ideas at
>>>>> >>> p2presearch at listcultures.org as well, mostly centered around
>>>>> >>> Drupal.
>>>>> >>> Drupal's great, but I still stick by my suggestion and offer of
>>>>> >>> ELGG
>>>>> >>> as the best 1 to 1 replacement for Ning, requiring the least amount
>>>>> >>> of
>>>>> >>> effort.
>>>>> >>> --
>>>>> >>> --
>>>>> >>> Sam Rose
>>>>> >>> Forward Foundation
>>>>> >>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>> >>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>> >>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>> >>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> >>> http://forwardfound.org
>>>>> >>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>> >>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>> >>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>> >>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>> >>> http://notanemployee.net
>>>>> >>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>>> >>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>> >>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>> >> Think
>>>>> >> thank:
>>>>> >> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>>>>> >> http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>>> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Sam Rose
>>>>> > Forward Foundation
>>>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> > http://forwardfound.org
>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>> > http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>> > http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>> > http://notanemployee.net
>>>>> > http://communitywiki.org
>>>>> > http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>> > ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Videobridgebuilders mailing list
>>>>> > Videobridgebuilders at globalvillages.org
>>>>> > http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Videobridgebuilders mailing list
>>>>> Videobridgebuilders at globalvillages.org
>>>>> http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> This is a message from the OpenKollab Google Group located at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/openkollab?hl=en
>>> To post to this group, send email to openkollab at googlegroups.com
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Cooperrider
>> Strategic Account Manager, Collabforge pty ltd
>> collaboration ~ mass collaboration ~ social software
>> + 61 (0) 468 954 779 ~ 239 Rathdowne St, Carlton, Melbourne 3053
>> collabforge.com ~ twitter.com/mattcoop
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
>

-- 
-- 
Sam Rose
Forward Foundation
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://forwardfound.org
http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
http://socialmediaclassroom.com
http://localfoodsystems.org
http://notanemployee.net
http://communitywiki.org
http://p2pfoundation.net

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan