[p2p-research] [OK] Re: [VBbuilders] Why and how work together?

Tue Apr 20 15:10:46 CEST 2010

It's a great question Andrius, and one worth answering.

But it's way too big a question for one person to answer. Would folks on
this list first try to answer this question instead?:

*** What do we need to do in order to be able to answer the question "why
and how work together?" ***

Here's mine:

Map people, groups, goals, strategies, and resource and their relationships
using standard data formats and a distributed database. (a lot of work has
already been done on this across a number of the participants here)

- Matt

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I'm equally unsure that attacking people in person who have put much effort
> in building a broader global movement (franz, sam, alex) is really helpful,
> and also, I think human ego precludes everybody following the same movement,
> whether it is andrius' or p2p-f or whatever,
>
> so it is looking for commonalities in our approaches, looking for common
> needs, and technology proceeds from that, not the other way around,
>
> each of our approaches appeals to different personalities and segments of
> people, though of course, historical events and sudden scale-explosion of a
> particular initiative, will eventually coalesce forces into particular
> social organisations, but p2p, broadly considered, is still too emergent and
> ahead of its time to achieve such scale.
>
> So where we are is with this flourishing of myriad initiatives, each trying
> to re-invent the wheel and duplicating efforts,
>
> BUT, we can use each other's differential strengths to rally around certain
> initiatives for certain goals, and around others for other goals,
>
> people who are spiritually inclined would join andrius, those interested in
> building a knowledge commons would rally around the p2p-foundation (if I had
> my wish <g>), and those with tech-platform ideas around sam's forward
> foundation,
>
> at this stage, this is unavoidable,
>
> Michel
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Mark Petz <ravenwyn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I see here Andrius exposing his thoughts openly. BUT I see that can be
>> seen as divisive and argumentative by some. I think that this call for
>> communities working together is actually a reflection of what we want in
>> real life.
>>
>> Luckily I have a community where at times I can play a leadership rôle and
>> at others a supporting rôle. Pispala is good that way with solidarity a part
>> of how we are. I urge any of you to come and spend some time here with
>> projects I can help you find and you can see how that culture works.
>>
>> Annette is doing this right now.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, <ms at ms.lt> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm glad for Franz Nahrada's and other letters at Global Villages
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/globalvillages/ in response to the closing
>>> down of the free-of-charge Ning services and what we might do next.
>>>
>>> I wish that:
>>> * We organize around people who have demonstrated successful leadership
>>> as
>>> networkers working openly, whether its Suresh Fernando (Open Kollab),
>>> Tiffany Von Emmel (Dreamfish), myself (Minciu Sodas), Michel Bauwens (P2P
>>> Foundation), etc.   And actually double check what has been successful.
>>> So, for example, our Pyramid of Peace http://www.pyramidofpeace.net was
>>> undeniably successful.  Franz Nahrada is a key person at Minciu Sodas,
>>> but
>>> not a "hub" for "working openly", rather a person who destructively
>>> "compartmentalizes" activity, which is to say, works in a closed,
>>> untransparent manner.  Sam Rose is less of a "hub" and Alex Rollins even
>>> less so.  How can we make progress if we don't acknowledge merit?
>>> * We organize around social goals - for example, I'm interested in an
>>> "economy of dreams".  Suresh (and Janet Feldman!) is interested in how to
>>> organize millions of people to tackle big problems like world poverty.
>>> Tiffany Von Emmel is interested in a new kind of work cooperative.
>>> Whereas Franz was interested in Ning and Sam is interested in Elgg and
>>> Alex in Drupal.  I think that's backwards and unhelpful.
>>> * Let's organize around existing groups.  Tiffany already has an Elgg
>>> site
>>> running at http://dreamfish.com  Why do we need more Elgg sites?  Or why
>>> can't we build around existing ones in a more general way?  Why can't we
>>> build on existing software teams like Dreamfish's?  Why couldn't we build
>>> a team for Minciu Sodas, there was such need? I was very disturbed when
>>> Franz walked away from years of free service I provided - without any
>>> consultation - just set up a new server with Ralf - and what has he
>>> gained?  Or pays 3,000 EUR per year to closed version of ProWiki, why?
>>> Why aren't we trying to share resources? (And thank you to Franz for
>>> sharing in many other ways, I recently stayed 6 weeks with him in
>>> Vienna.)
>>> * Let's look at technologies and see if there's any examples that
>>> actually
>>> encourage us.  I can't think of a single Drupal website that impresses me
>>> as a community.  Nor a Ning or Elgg site for that matter.  Certainly none
>>> as strong as the Minciu Sodas community, which isn't all that strong.
>>> * What are our personal goals, values, questions, concerns,
>>> accountability, etc.?  Why are we wasting time with people who offer
>>> "help" when we have no idea of their own dreams, values, endeavors,
>>> quests
>>> nor they of ours?  That's why I believe it's important to start with a
>>> cultural commitment as I'm trying to with "12 Questions"
>>> http://www.12questions.org
>>> * Let's make a technology strategy that can support a culture.  In a
>>> Facebook/Twitter world it's no longer possible to develop a culture
>>> through venues, there's no reason for people to be loyal to an online
>>> space.  So the cultural commitment has to be I imagine a cultural code
>>> but
>>> not a set of venues.
>>>
>>> I'm very troubled that leadership is offered without credibility, and
>>> that
>>> people like myself who have demonstrated credibility are not supported.
>>> How can we have a meaningful network then?
>>>
>>> Andrius
>>>
>>> Andrius Kulikauskas
>>> Minciu Sodas
>>> http://www.ms.lt
>>> ms at ms.lt
>>> +370 699 30003
>>>
>>>
>>> > I agree with Michel and Alex on what Michel talks about below. We can
>>> > discuss and plan first, then choose tools and build together. Makes
>>> > sense to me.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> I'm personally a least effort guy, but that mostly because I'm
>>> >> overextended
>>> >> myself,
>>> >>
>>> >> the first thing is asking ourselves, but what it is for?
>>> >>
>>> >> as i said, the social features and threading were the added value, but
>>> >> otherwise, the Ning site underperformed, and I was the only one taking
>>> >> care
>>> >> of admin tasks (but thanks to sepp especially for his forum articles
>>> >> which
>>> >> attracteda lot of discussion)
>>> >>
>>> >> personally, I won't necessarily miss Ning that much, but of course,
>>> >> would be
>>> >> happy for others to really build the p2p foundation as a movement,
>>> >>
>>> >> this is what is appealing in alex' proposals, to devise a 3-year
>>> >> strategy
>>> >> for movement building and funding,
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm of course really for it, but it is beyond my individual effort,
>>> >>
>>> >> what I'm doing with Sam, through civicCRM is devising a mailing list
>>> of
>>> >> our
>>> >> sympathizers, for some more specialized outreach purposes
>>> >>
>>> >> Michel
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>> >>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>> > Hi Franz,
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > if you want to know what the p2p network is trying to find as
>>> >>> solutions,
>>> >>> > you
>>> >>> > can talk to Sam, who had some proposals for us, and we're working
>>> on
>>> >>> > them,
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Michel
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> My suggestion was that we can use ELGG http://elgg.org/ as a
>>> >>> replacement for Ning
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There's currently lots of discussion, offers and ideas at
>>> >>> p2presearch at listcultures.org as well, mostly centered around Drupal.
>>> >>> Drupal's great, but I still stick by my suggestion and offer of ELGG
>>> >>> as the best 1 to 1 replacement for Ning, requiring the least amount
>>> of
>>> >>> effort.
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Sam Rose
>>> >>> Forward Foundation
>>> >>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>> >>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>> >>> skype: samuelrose
>>> >>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>> >>> http://forwardfound.org
>>> >>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>> >>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>> >>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>> >>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>> >>> http://notanemployee.net
>>> >>> http://communitywiki.org
>>> >>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>> >>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>>> >> thank:
>>> >> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>> >>
>>> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>> >>
>>> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>> >>
>>> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > --
>>> > Sam Rose
>>> > Forward Foundation
>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>> > http://forwardfound.org
>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>> > http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>> > http://localfoodsystems.org
>>> > http://notanemployee.net
>>> > http://communitywiki.org
>>> > http://p2pfoundation.net
>>> >
>>> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>> > ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Videobridgebuilders mailing list
>>> > Videobridgebuilders at globalvillages.org
>>> > http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Videobridgebuilders mailing list
>>> Videobridgebuilders at globalvillages.org
>>> http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>  --
> This is a message from the OpenKollab Google Group located at
> http://groups.google.com/group/openkollab?hl=en
> To post to this group, send email to openkollab at googlegroups.com
>

-- 
Matt Cooperrider
Strategic Account Manager, Collabforge pty ltd
collaboration ~ mass collaboration ~ social software
+ 61 (0) 468 954 779 ~ 239 Rathdowne St, Carlton, Melbourne 3053
collabforge.com ~ twitter.com/mattcoop
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