[p2p-research] [globalvillages] Ning eliminates free networks

Mon Apr 19 10:52:10 CEST 2010

Many people on this list will be familiar with Drupal.  Several of us are
experts in one area of Drupal or another.

I think the issue about regular costs is an important one.  I am happy to
volunteer 20 hours of maintenance annually to make a Drupal site work for
the P2PFoundation.

Volunteer labor does not take care of the costs of hosting, though. I think
the idea of everyone chipping in and coordinating is a great one.

What if we planned a 3 year cycle?  Collect costs for 3 years of hosting
(+10%?) and then planned to run the campaign again after 2 years, giving us
a year to raise the money the next time through?

Perhaps Kasper and James can give us some options for where to put the web
properties, and how much hosting costs, per year.

Indeed I have always advised against Ning because there was always the
chance that what has happened would happen.  Ning has made data exports
available, yes, but one must have a programmer around in order to make use
of such a thing, and then a destination in mind for the data itself.  This
should serve to inform a great number of people about the difference between
free and OpenSource, and make many unhappy.

--
Alex

“It’s no longer possible for a country to collapse in isolation. Now we all
collapse.

The only path to stability is to equalize the consumption rates of the first
and developing world. Our dream is no longer possible in the new world.” -
Jared Diamond March 2010

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Pamela McLean <pam54321 at googlemail.com>wrote:

> Hi Franz and Michel (and Andy and Ryan)
>
> I am wondering if the work we have done (and plan to do) for
> www.dadamac.net is relevant to your needs. I have been working with Ryan
> and Andy on this, as resources have allowed, for the past year or so. We are
> designing and developing dadamac as the "online home" that is needed for the
> dadamac community.
>
> Our work may be relevant to you because, from the start I have been setting
> dadamac.net up to serve an existing network (which I now call the "dadamac
> community"). Like many networks it is not easy to define - but for the sake
> of this email all you need to know is the nature of the problem we are
> trying to address, and how far we have got. Then you can judge if our
> foundations are useful for you to build on.
>
> I need an online home for Dadamac for various reasons. We are involved in
> many things (which are scattered around online and on the ground). I need
> some way to bring them all together, make them more visible, make it easier
> for "outsiders" to get involved with us, provide a kind of one-stop-shop for
> all we are doing so that people can rummage around for themselves to see
> what interests them. At the same time I need spaces which are for private
> meetings etc. This is an oversimplification - there is much more - regarding
> action groups and so on. Also there is stuff which is working already but
> you cannot see as you are not a member of the relevant groups. In my mind I
> can see the information flows that I am trying to enable, and the
> relationships (people to people, people to information, information to
> information) that I am trying to enable.
>
> I needed to pull it all together, and I was not satisfied with what I
> understood to be available through eixisting things like Facebook and NING.
> If you visit Dadamac.net  you will only see it as far as it has got.  What
> you nee to see is what is in my mind (which is what I would like you to be
> able to have). But if we have the right conversation and involve Andy and
> Ryan, they can explain better what we are doing, and how, and you can decide
> if our foundations would be of use to you.
>
> Andy - you will recognise that this is partly about the "CKK/CCK" thing you
> and I have been talking about which I need to ask Ryan about implementing.
> Plus our existing visible Drupal stuff, and our invisible Moodle stuff and
> various things around the edges.
>
> I imagine that either people could copy our framework and put in their own
> info - or we could all do something using the existing framework.  I don't
> know exactly. I just know that it would be sad to waste effort duplicating
> things if the effort we have already put in would be useful to others.
>
> Pamela
>
>
>
>
> On 19 April 2010 07:17, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Franz,
>>
>> if you want to know what the p2p network is trying to find as solutions,
>> you can talk to Sam, who had some proposals for us, and we're working on
>> them,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada at reflex.at>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jeff, all!
>>> Also doing a crosspost from globalvillages to other lists, because the
>>> subject was brought up there also.
>>>
>>> The NING message really stroke me. Its not only the Global Villages
>>> Network (globalvillages.ning.com) thats heavily depending on NING, but
>>> also many other networks that I know of and many that I run myself. If I
>>> had to pay for all of them I would go broke. They are fine and useful,
>>> like the Transition Europe and Transition Austria Network and Power Down
>>> and many other sites. They have brought a lot of people together and are
>>> much more useful than Facebook. Facebook is good to attract people, but
>>> its to noise and crowded to do in-depth discussions, store files and do
>>> many other things.
>>>
>>> Yes, I think its another kind of wrong dependency of communities on
>>> corporate strategies. Corporate business is more and more depending on
>>> the
>>> utilisation and enabling catalyzation of community work and outreach. But
>>> this is happening in a Wild-West manner with Lasso and branding iron, not
>>> in a decent way. What is needed would be  a kind of transitory covenant
>>> for me, and we - the community world - will have to learn the hard way to
>>> only go with the ones that are dedicated and set up for trustworthiness.
>>>
>>> I was assuming that there would be a much smoother transition strategy
>>> and
>>> not such a "shock therapy " and most likely I will keep only Global
>>> Villages Network on NING if at all. Then we would have to set up
>>> donations. I had a talk with Les Squires today, the mastermind from
>>> Colorado that built so many Transition sites, and they already run
>>> Transition US at a paid base, for 25 $ per months to keep it ad-free.
>>> This
>>> is based on donations.
>>>
>>> Its also no problem if we are doing this for a commercial client. Then we
>>> can simply charge the costs from the client. I did a project in Mixxt and
>>> received some money for it, and its totally OK in this case to give a
>>> share to the provider. What is not OK is to treat all the cases equally.
>>> The originator of the Austrian constitution, Hans Kelsen, is said to have
>>> said: "you cannot treat unequal things equally". Here comes my critique
>>> on
>>> NING.
>>>
>>> I thought that the owner and founder
>>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Andreessen)  was more serious in his
>>> approach, having the financial resources to really do meaningful things
>>> and having supported meaningful non-primarily-profit projects like
>>> Netscape for some time. My trust was even reenforced when I tried to
>>> create my eleventh NING seing that there was a barrier of ten built in to
>>> avoid excess.
>>>
>>> I am also ready to pay for services that I value, that is not the
>>> question. I had a time I could afford to support Andrius and the Minciu
>>> Sodas Ecosystem, now the main parts of my resources and the social
>>> capital
>>> I can mobilize financewise are taken by Helmut Leitners Wikiservice for
>>> my
>>> Dorfwiki. (www.dorfwiki.org)
>>>
>>> Here comes the catch. I think that using the vendor-lock-in trick and not
>>> helping people to migrate elsewhere is a variant of blackmail. Helmuts
>>> Wikiservice also is befallen by the "Vendor Lock In Disease" but I
>>> suppose
>>> would be fair enough to provide users an exit solution (the raw content
>>> of
>>> a Hypertext system exported as textfile by the way is absolutely not
>>> useful, which I saw in the case of Gesunde Erde Gesunde Menschen, = a
>>> Wiki
>>> that Helmut turned off for the proponents did not raise resources to pay
>>> for = and they were not able to reconstruct it even when we offered them
>>> ProWiki hosting on our experimental server which for good reasons I do
>>> not
>>> want to activate yet).
>>>
>>> Of course in the NING case its absolutely clear that they will not
>>> provide
>>> any opportunity to port the content. Or at least that would be very
>>> unlikely. From a database programmers perspective providing portability
>>> also is a nightmare. And where should one go, by the way? To facebook?
>>> Unless another service comes up with a content grabber there will be no
>>> chance. And you have to ask people for permission. You would have had to
>>> think of it way ahead.
>>>
>>> Currently the resources to pay for all the online venues that we utilize
>>> are dwindling, and its getting harder year by year to support the
>>> respective standards. I am still trying to convince Helmut of the
>>> necessity of fair conditions and he is trying the same with me from his
>>> commercial point of view. We are still far from each other. But in a
>>> world
>>> of blind he seems like the one-eyed for me, and he really is passionate
>>> about our content and gives reliable support. I try to find an economic
>>> base together with him that would allow us to provide good and free
>>> services. I say good and free services, including reliability, empathy,
>>> stability and respect.
>>>
>>> But there is another side to all this.
>>>
>>> I think there comes a great deal of responsibility for hosting other
>>> peoples content, and this responsibility is a cultural one. Our tragedy
>>> is
>>> that capitalism is a system of organized irresponsibility on ALL sides,
>>> and we have to experience painfully the absence of truly meaningful
>>> solutions and cultural standards in an age of transition of value
>>> creation
>>> from the factory to the individual. We do not reward people for
>>> coworking,
>>> and very often they are not ready to pay when they are already thinking
>>> along. Les gave me the exampe of Adam Green who had a very vivid dBase2
>>> newsletter at a time with 10000 subscribers. When he wanted to charge for
>>> it only 3 people were willing to pay for it. Les thinks that 90% of the
>>> existing NING sites might just go under after the move to commercial.
>>> Consider the amount of human labor lost !!!
>>>
>>> Coming back to NING, there is an open question of migration that must be
>>> answered.
>>>
>>> I found some UNSATISFACTORY answers here:
>>>
>>> http://creators.ning.com/forum/topics/the-best-most-reliable-and
>>>
>>> The author of that blog post, JP is hyping Spruz, but their advertising
>>> is
>>> horrible. I already did a test site.
>>>
>>> I think that our community could think allong what are the alternatives
>>> to
>>> construct a social network that is closed and open at the same time. If
>>> you want to help please meditate about the list given there and help us
>>> find out about commited providers.
>>>
>>> I also include neighboring lists like videobridgebuilders and
>>> p2p-research
>>>
>>> I dont really think that Facebook and Twitter are so necessary - they are
>>> like booths in front of the house, inviting people in, but there is yet
>>> an
>>> inside and an outside.
>>>
>>> Les suggests that we might think of Wiser Earth, and, for a very small
>>> financial contribution, to also consider meetup.com. Many groups are
>>> just
>>> meetups, not many have extensive online discussions, and they are very
>>> reasonable in user-fee ratio. 70% of Transition sites are mainly using
>>> NING as event announcer.
>>>
>>> There is a slight chance on the other hand that we will make a quantum
>>> leap and install one system of our choice on globalvillages.orgourselves.
>>> We have a yet unused server online with 1GB/sec connectivity!
>>>
>>> I also think of Andrius and his information ecosystem and wished he would
>>> make his standards of action more understandeable. I had a long
>>> discussion
>>> with him last night and it worries me how difficult it is to agree on
>>> terms of usage that make sense for all sides. Its hard to point to the
>>> Mornflake example when the goals of the campaigns were not reached,
>>> because of unrealistic expectations.
>>>
>>> I have worked out a whole plan for the Minciu Sodas Information Ecosystem
>>> with Andrius (I must say its one of the most complete maps of an
>>> Information Ecosystem ever conceived) , and some parts of this were
>>> depending on commercial services which is totally understandeable from
>>> the
>>> pragmatic point of view. This is still a yahoogroup and Andrius has found
>>> out tremendous ways of integrating an external view to yahoogroups that
>>> could easily be turned into a valuable million dollar service and yet be
>>> free to communities. But most likely Yahoo would prevent that. And
>>> Andrius
>>> would most likely not be interested in that either - because he wants
>>> everything that we do to directly foster a culture of independent
>>> thinkers. But I point to him as one of the people who have a lot of great
>>> capacities in the field. I wish someone would bail him out and they would
>>> be able to agree in a meaningful way to use this capacity by agreed
>>> standards.
>>>
>>> So here I am - still confused and thinking and trying to make sense and
>>> find ways.
>>>
>>> all the best
>>>
>>> Franz
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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