[p2p-research] Re(markets without capital?): [Commoning] new post
Michel Bauwens
michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Sat Apr 10 11:03:30 CEST 2010
i want to respond to your paragraph, and categorically state my position is
not market socialist:
see:
This - NOTE (!) - is NOT a traditional position at all, which, to the
contrary,
always held (and continues to hold), that money is an "ahistoric" necessity
of
human relations (or at least a "major advance" not to be missed) and
socialism is based on a market economy without capital (so that's rather
your
position, it seems to me). (the third way of state socialism we all rule
out, i
am sure.)
My reponse:
- under capitalism, composing with existing market structures is inevitable,
but we must create maximum autonomy without it
- under transition, the core commons will exist with a plurality of economic
means, as determined by autonomous individuals and communities ... this
nearly makes sure that a subtantial amount of people will use trade and
markets, but necessarily divorced from infinite capital accumulation
- eventually, more and more areas of social life will not need scarcity
allocation through any market mechanism
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Andreas Exner <andreas.exner at chello.at>wrote:
> Dear Michel
>
> I do not think there is evidence of markets preceding capitalism for a few
> thousand years. What we know from anthropology is, that different "peoples"
> entered into relations of exchange (see Polanyi), but these were not
> relations
> of equivalency of abstract economic value (as in capitalism). Antique
> markets
> (where more is known about how they worked) are also not to be compared to
> markets sensu strictu.
>
> First of all, there were no labor markets - the fundamental criterion of
> capitalistic production.
>
> Secondly, no free price setting existed.
>
> As a result, those "markets" were far away from any regulating role
> concerning societal relations with nature. This is equally illustrated by
> "markets" in the Middle Ages - producers were mostly independet, markets
> came into existence where "communities" ended (their objects were luxury
> goods, for the most part).
>
> I am not aware of any english publications of Hans Christoph Binswanger -
> maybe one finds some in the net - anyway, he really just replicates Marx
> (without citing him) but without drawing adequate consequences (that's
> "bourgeois" ;-). I just found interesting, that different people develop
> similar
> analyses sometimes.
>
> Capital accumulation is in no way caused or driven by interest (as you
> suggest probably).
>
> First of all, the abstract nature of economic value (embodied by money)
> (resulting in "quantitativism" and "boundless growth")
>
> Secondly, by competition for abstract value.
>
> Interest is a secondary phenomenon (actually hampering growth, as common
> economic policy measures show).
>
> Is your conception of a "different money" some way related to this idea of
> "money without interest"? or is it another concept (which would be new to
> me,
> then)?
>
> In any case, as far as we could reach consensus about the core feature of
> capital: that living time is sold as "labor" - then we can easily conclude,
> that
> "markets" in a non-capitalist society (without labor markets, then) would
> regulate nothing of importance ("flee markets" may exist).
>
> This - NOTE (!) - is NOT a traditional position at all, which, to the
> contrary,
> always held (and continues to hold), that money is an "ahistoric" necessity
> of
> human relations (or at least a "major advance" not to be missed) and
> socialism is based on a market economy without capital (so that's rather
> your
> position, it seems to me). (the third way of state socialism we all rule
> out, i
> am sure.)
>
> The point that I really do not understand: if we are talking about commons,
> we
> are talking about collective action beyond state and market relations. If
> we
> think commons to be connected through market relations, I do not see any
> progress as compared to (failed) models of "market socialism".
>
> best, Andreas
>
> >
> > Dear Andreas,
> >
> > yes, this is a very important and difficult topic, because, though
> > markets have preceded capitalism for a few thousand years, breaking
> > the link would now be much more difficult. I would add to your more
> > classic analysis, and do feel free to send some english links on that
> > german economist, that there is now an important discovery about the
> > design of money itself, that leads to accumulation even without
> > capitalism. This would mean that building alternative structures,
> > based on open design communities and distributed manufacturing, who
> > could operate a lot of their activities through mutual coordination
> > instead of market signals, could also buy and sell rival goods without
> > any necessity for accumulation, if they would use differently designed
> > money. The latter priority is part and parcel of the p2p approach,
> > in fact a central plank, Michel
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Andreas Exner
> > <andreas.exner at chello.at> wrote:
> > hi all, espacially michel,
> >
> > what we did not really discuss in crottorf, though i think it to
> > be of great importance, is the thesis, that market logics could be
> > decoupled from capitalism.
> >
> > i wish that to be discussed some day in a more profound
> > way. actually we recently submitted a research project where
> > this question (inter alia) will be tackled.
> >
> > actually, i would argue that the growth imperative is founded on
> > one central structural feature of a money economy, i.e. one
> > reigned by markets (of labor, first of all): the abstract
> > character of (economic) value.
> >
> > this leads to
> >
> > (1) an urge to grow, since more money is better than less money,
> > and agents in a market economy have (per definition) no other
> > means to measure economic success than to compare expenditures (in
> > money terms) and income (in money terms)
> >
> > (2) a compulsion to grow, since markets imply competition for
> > abstract value.
> >
> > this essentially is the position of Marx, but can be found also in
> > the interesting works of the "bourgeois" economist hans christoph
> > binswanger.
> >
> > best wishes, andreas
> >
> >
> > >
> > > great reportage Massimo ... this is pretty much what I envision
> > the > transition situation to be, when commoning becomes more
> > central within > capitalism, but with great potential for a phase
> > transition away from > it, as you indicate, it has problems, but
> > it is at the same time > vastly superior of the existing corporate
> > alternatives in so many > ways, the question then becomes how to
> > extend the commons aspects on > a local and global scale, and how
> > to divorce market logics from > capitalism as an infinite growth
> > system centered on endless > accumulation, Michel > > On Sat,
> > Mar 27, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Massimo De Angelis >
> > <commoning at gmail.com> wrote: > Hello everybody > here is
> > the latest reflection on a strange place we found high up > on
> > the Ecuadorian Andes. It is quite amazing that in a desolate >
> > and far away area like this, you could find so much >
> > "entrepreneurship" . . .but what makes this Salinas experience >
> > truly interesting and intriguing is the mixture of commonism and
> > > capitalism we have found . . . > > Read > Branding + Mingas
> > + Coops = Salinas > at http://www.commoner.org.uk/blog/?p=239 > >
> > Saludos > Massimo > >
> > _______________________________________________ > Commoning
> > mailing list > Commoning at lists.wissensallmende.de >
> > http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning > > > >
> > > -- > Work:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think >
> > thank:
> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI > >
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect:
> > http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.
> > org > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
> > http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
> > thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net -
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
--
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20100410/22062fde/attachment.html>
More information about the p2presearch
mailing list