[p2p-research] Re(markets without capital?): [Commoning] new post
Michel Bauwens
michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Sat Apr 10 10:58:14 CEST 2010
dear andreas,
concerning markets not being capitalist ... but that's EXACTLY what I mean,
so good that you concur ... and they were marginal, which is exactly also my
point, for the past (were), the present (should be) and the future (will be
again); it's just one of the technique for rival goods (I personally believe
mutual coordination will eventually render much market pricing obsolete, but
that will take a substantial amount of time to develop)
as for the timing, rome, 2000 years had trade and markets, and likely all
city states preceding it, that's a few thousand years in my reckoning,
the kind of markets that are acceptable as a free choice are those that
respect the externalities and not geared through accumulation,
as for interest causing accumulation, it is not the sole cause, and is
secondary in capitalism, I agree, but, if you did NOT have capitalism, and
you had interest, you'd still have accumulation,
you should look at the historical evidence from the middle ages, described
in detail in bernard lietaer's new book or manuscript
this is not difficult to understand;
- any money design which makes it interesting to keep money, favours
accumulation and creates unequal power for those accumulating
- in a static economy, the non-existing interest needs to be taken from
other people, causing social collapse and disintegration, hence the clear
taboo against it in pre-industrial society; abolishing that taboo has been
crucial to the emergence of capitalism, which solves the conundrum of
compound interest by growth
Refusing to take this into account, ie. accepting social design in code,
software, architecture, but not in money, paradoxically leads to supporting
the continued existence of capitalist money
So, I see a way out in our divergence:
- you agree that exchange/markets have existed that were not capitalist, and
presumably, that they did not have the same accumulative effects? if so, the
question then becomes, do you want a monolithic commoning society that would
outlaw such exchanges. I don't think so? I conclude from this that we can
agree that the commons should be the core of a society, but with a plural
ways of conducting life and the economy. I propose three constraints: 1) not
geared to infinite accumulation and biospheric destruction; no artificial
scarcities in knowledge exchange and culture; social justice
- you keep your conviction that capitalism is not a good system, but accept
that monetary transformation is one of the fields of activitity that
commoners will undertake, as they are doing now, and you don't coercively
force them to keep capitalist money
If you agree on those two points, we can agree to diverge and still find
common action,
Michel
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Andreas Exner <andreas.exner at chello.at>wrote:
> Dear Michel
>
> I do not think there is evidence of markets preceding capitalism for a few
> thousand years. What we know from anthropology is, that different "peoples"
> entered into relations of exchange (see Polanyi), but these were not
> relations
> of equivalency of abstract economic value (as in capitalism). Antique
> markets
> (where more is known about how they worked) are also not to be compared to
> markets sensu strictu.
>
> First of all, there were no labor markets - the fundamental criterion of
> capitalistic production.
>
> Secondly, no free price setting existed.
>
> As a result, those "markets" were far away from any regulating role
> concerning societal relations with nature. This is equally illustrated by
> "markets" in the Middle Ages - producers were mostly independet, markets
> came into existence where "communities" ended (their objects were luxury
> goods, for the most part).
>
> I am not aware of any english publications of Hans Christoph Binswanger -
> maybe one finds some in the net - anyway, he really just replicates Marx
> (without citing him) but without drawing adequate consequences (that's
> "bourgeois" ;-). I just found interesting, that different people develop
> similar
> analyses sometimes.
>
> Capital accumulation is in no way caused or driven by interest (as you
> suggest probably).
>
> First of all, the abstract nature of economic value (embodied by money)
> (resulting in "quantitativism" and "boundless growth")
>
> Secondly, by competition for abstract value.
>
> Interest is a secondary phenomenon (actually hampering growth, as common
> economic policy measures show).
>
> Is your conception of a "different money" some way related to this idea of
> "money without interest"? or is it another concept (which would be new to
> me,
> then)?
>
> In any case, as far as we could reach consensus about the core feature of
> capital: that living time is sold as "labor" - then we can easily conclude,
> that
> "markets" in a non-capitalist society (without labor markets, then) would
> regulate nothing of importance ("flee markets" may exist).
>
> This - NOTE (!) - is NOT a traditional position at all, which, to the
> contrary,
> always held (and continues to hold), that money is an "ahistoric" necessity
> of
> human relations (or at least a "major advance" not to be missed) and
> socialism is based on a market economy without capital (so that's rather
> your
> position, it seems to me). (the third way of state socialism we all rule
> out, i
> am sure.)
>
> The point that I really do not understand: if we are talking about commons,
> we
> are talking about collective action beyond state and market relations. If
> we
> think commons to be connected through market relations, I do not see any
> progress as compared to (failed) models of "market socialism".
>
> best, Andreas
>
> >
> > Dear Andreas,
> >
> > yes, this is a very important and difficult topic, because, though
> > markets have preceded capitalism for a few thousand years, breaking
> > the link would now be much more difficult. I would add to your more
> > classic analysis, and do feel free to send some english links on that
> > german economist, that there is now an important discovery about the
> > design of money itself, that leads to accumulation even without
> > capitalism. This would mean that building alternative structures,
> > based on open design communities and distributed manufacturing, who
> > could operate a lot of their activities through mutual coordination
> > instead of market signals, could also buy and sell rival goods without
> > any necessity for accumulation, if they would use differently designed
> > money. The latter priority is part and parcel of the p2p approach,
> > in fact a central plank, Michel
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Andreas Exner
> > <andreas.exner at chello.at> wrote:
> > hi all, espacially michel,
> >
> > what we did not really discuss in crottorf, though i think it to
> > be of great importance, is the thesis, that market logics could be
> > decoupled from capitalism.
> >
> > i wish that to be discussed some day in a more profound
> > way. actually we recently submitted a research project where
> > this question (inter alia) will be tackled.
> >
> > actually, i would argue that the growth imperative is founded on
> > one central structural feature of a money economy, i.e. one
> > reigned by markets (of labor, first of all): the abstract
> > character of (economic) value.
> >
> > this leads to
> >
> > (1) an urge to grow, since more money is better than less money,
> > and agents in a market economy have (per definition) no other
> > means to measure economic success than to compare expenditures (in
> > money terms) and income (in money terms)
> >
> > (2) a compulsion to grow, since markets imply competition for
> > abstract value.
> >
> > this essentially is the position of Marx, but can be found also in
> > the interesting works of the "bourgeois" economist hans christoph
> > binswanger.
> >
> > best wishes, andreas
> >
> >
> > >
> > > great reportage Massimo ... this is pretty much what I envision
> > the > transition situation to be, when commoning becomes more
> > central within > capitalism, but with great potential for a phase
> > transition away from > it, as you indicate, it has problems, but
> > it is at the same time > vastly superior of the existing corporate
> > alternatives in so many > ways, the question then becomes how to
> > extend the commons aspects on > a local and global scale, and how
> > to divorce market logics from > capitalism as an infinite growth
> > system centered on endless > accumulation, Michel > > On Sat,
> > Mar 27, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Massimo De Angelis >
> > <commoning at gmail.com> wrote: > Hello everybody > here is
> > the latest reflection on a strange place we found high up > on
> > the Ecuadorian Andes. It is quite amazing that in a desolate >
> > and far away area like this, you could find so much >
> > "entrepreneurship" . . .but what makes this Salinas experience >
> > truly interesting and intriguing is the mixture of commonism and
> > > capitalism we have found . . . > > Read > Branding + Mingas
> > + Coops = Salinas > at http://www.commoner.org.uk/blog/?p=239 > >
> > Saludos > Massimo > >
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