[p2p-research] [Commoning] Re(market-as-place, exchange, value, state): Re(markets without capital?): new post

[Michel Bauwens]

This whole debate about the commons and capitalism has been hugely
interesting and I'm wondering if anyone would have the energy to make some
kind of synthesis of it, as Kevin and Sepp have done in the past for some
imporant internet discussions?

Sorry that I could not participate more myself ...

Michel

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 3:01 AM, j.martin.pedersen <
m.pedersen at lancaster.ac.uk> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> On 30/03/10 15:15, Andreas Exner wrote:
> > Hi Silke and all,
> >
> > I think that we project our own social world into completely
> > different ways of thinking and producing if we transfer the notion
> > of "market" to other modes of production.
> >
> >
> > First of all, I would say that declaring markets to be a superhistorical
> > phenomenon is the core of market ideology!
>
> Which is precisely why it is the point at which to attack, subvert,
> substitute and move on into a new and differently defined "common sense"
> (as in Gramsci).
>
> There has been markets - places where people gather to barter and trade
> stuff - before capitalism - that is for sure. There are market places
> outside of capitalism and today there are things like farmers' markets
> etc. (more on that below).
>
> > Even more as commons are (as e.g. Massimo points out) are of course part
> > of capitalism and the basis of its functioning (actually a liberal
> commons-
> > thinker whose name I would have to look up explicitely stated this - and
> he is
> > right, I think).
>
> This is misrepresenting Massimo's work and position. There are indeed
> commons inside capitalism and capitalism itself is based on a common
> value, which is defined by private property rights (which then, of
> course, immediately separates people again). However, there were commons
> before capitalism - that is what enclosures destroyed. In other words,
> commons are a precondition of capitalism and also an eternally necessary
> condition, because of the permanent character of the necessity of
> enclosure for capitalism. But this does not mean that there cannot be
> commons outside of capitalism, indeed, that is Massimo's main concern:
> searching for commons outside of capitalism. That is why he is in South
> America and that is why he expressed his concerns with the cooperatives
> of Salinas, since they are too close for comfort to capitalism and
> slowly, but safely slipping into capitalism.
>
> > When we think of "the market" as a "place" of exchange of things and
> > services, well, then I do not see how such a way of organizing social
> > production and distribution fits well into the 21st century.
>
> Then you need to look a bit harder. Farmers' markets, community
> supported agriculture, indeed even P2P exchange of things take place in
> cyberspace's E2E architecture, which is a place, embedded in cables and
> wires and switches; perhaps a virtual place, nevertheless.
>
> > Such places did exist in the Middle Ages, also in the Greek polis - but
> this is
> > not a level of social production and distribution which I would opt for
> or which
> > could be revived again "out of the blue".
>
> It is all around you. Everywhere. In the city I live in there is
> currently a campaign to save the market - as a place where people
> exchange things.
>
> > Actually, reducing social production to such "markets-as-places", where
> more
> > or less autonomous communities/households exchange casual surpluses
> > (such as in the Middle Ages) would be a radical de-socialization of
> production.
> > Maybe such a development will be inevitable in the long run, however I do
> not
> > think it is a state of affairs we should actively promote.
>
> Large-scale cooperatives, producing bicycles for instance, could go to
> markets and sell their things. Why reduce it so something so minimal???
>
> Makets-as-places do not have have to be a de-socialised scenario and
> offers a scalability that could be balanced with ecological concerns. In
> fact, markets-as-places seems to me to be the only way forward for truly
> socialised production, not just the pseudo-social nature of capitalism,
> that has only one social/common value, namely the separating powers of
> private property rights. I have been to many markets (as places) around
> the world where people take their things to sell them. Some come from
> minimal, autonomous comunities, of course, while others are from coops
> or networks of coops and there are even capitalist commodities - in
> fact, they are invading everywhere. Just 15 years ago when you went to a
> market somewhere in India or Peru there would mostly be local products
> from various sources, now there are Chinese plastic things everywhere.
> They have come to the market as a place. All things can and all types of
> producers can. Why not?
>
> > Talking about a "new social contract" oversimplifies the problem. First
> of all,
> > there is no "social contract" defining any social structure - I would
> rather
> > suggest that to be an ideology of liberal thinkers (who try to understand
> > society by way of "contracts", since this is the bourgeois ideology of
> how life
> > works, not only on the market, but everywhere).
>
> Of course, but all you have to do is to remove "new" and then you have a
> perfectly feasible term: social contract. Let us institute something
> that people actually do enter into voluntarily. The GPL is a social
> contract: it is voluntary, but once you enter into it you have to abide
> by the rules/principles enshrined in it. Else it is rendered invalid and
> reverts to default copyright, effectively evicting you from the (Free
> Software) commons.
>
> commonly yours,
> martin
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>



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