[p2p-research] Cybernetics the missing piece for partnership state and steady state economy?

Smári McCarthy smari at anarchism.is
Fri Sep 18 14:05:53 CEST 2009 

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I love the application of cybernetics to societal organization, and have
advocated much for it in the past (see for example my essay "The End of
(artificial) Scarcity"), but I must raise a fairly important question
regarding base assumptions.

"Parliaments and Congresses are replaced by citizens chosen for their
knowledge and competence, not their ability to run political campaigns."

In the exploration of the space of viable systems to replace the current
political model, you seem to have limited yourself to systems that have
the same structure as the congress/parliament model, ignoring other,
potentially more flexible models, such as models where each individual
is fully authoritive for his own actions (which, cybernetically
speaking, is the maximally viable base system, as all signals are
reciprocated to their emitters).

"Ideology is scrapped in favor of practical organizations and technical
solutions."

Hold on a moment. I like the idea here, but isn't this a very strong
assumption? Even if the system is reorganized in such a way that in
inter-organizational communications ideology is disregarded, that does
not preclude politicking within the organizations, which is unavoidable,
because at the end of the day the organization itself doesn't have
self-governance, but is rather a function of the individuals who make up
the organization, and each of these has her own agenda. Put simply, the
signals get muddled.



In all respects other than this, I agree with this analysis (although I
haven't had a chance to watch the video yet I'm afraid). In fact, I
agree to such a degree that what you're describing as a practical future
application is what I'm running towards in the TangibleBit project.

The goal is to create an industrial information system (IIS) which maps
resources. Ideologically (there it is again!) it's similar to the
CyberSyn project from the 1970's, although it's been modernized and
extended.

 -  Smári


Michel Bauwens wrote:
> Thank you for the contribution, which will appear on the 20th!
> 
> (http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/cybernetics-for-resource-based-economics/2009/09/20)
> 
> Michel
> 
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Alton Lindsay Jr.
> <junioreality at yahoo.com <mailto:junioreality at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> 
>     One of the key aspects of enhancing P2P in the material world is
>     figuring out how we can divide up natural resources for means of
>     production. And while we divide up such resources, the need for
>     stabilizing this resource throughput and waste disposal is important
>     in not deteriorating ecosystems.  The current organizational
>     structures of governments and corporations are not designed for such
>     solutions. What does a new redesign look like? This is the answer
>     from the viewpoint of Cybernetics and the Viable System Model.
>     Parliaments and Congresses are replaced by citizens chosen for their
>     knowledge and competence, not their ability to run political
>     campaigns. Ideology is scrapped in favor of practical organizations
>     and technical solutions.
> 
>     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrgRJiJBU2I&feature=related
>     <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrgRJiJBU2I&feature=related>
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     Cybernetics is inevitable and we have the means to do it in every
>     aspect of the social environment. When computers eventually have
>     sensors extended into all areas of the physical and social complex,
>     we will be able to achieve centralization of decision-making. In a
>     global resource-based economy, decisions would not be based on local
>     politics but on a holistic problem solving approach.
> 
>      
> 
>     For example, with electrical sensors extended into the agricultural
>     region, computerized systems would manage and control agriculture by
>     monitoring the water table, insects, pests, plant diseases, soil
>     nutrients, and so forth. The information processed will enable us to
>     arrive at more appropriate decision-making based on feedback from
>     the environment.
> 
> 
>     Computers, open software, and artificial intelligence will serve as
>     catalysts for change. They will establish scientific scales of
>     performance. Eventually, the installation of machine decision-making
>     will manage all resources serving the common good of a steady state
>     economy and P2P production.
> 
> 
>     This will result in a more humane and meaningful approach for
>     shaping tomorrow’s civilization that is not based on the opinions or
>     desires of a particular sect or individual. All decisions would be
>     made on the basis of a comprehensive survey of resources, energy,
>     and existing technology without allowing any advantage to a
>     particular nation or select group of people.
> 
> 
>     This may be accomplished with large-scale, computer-based processors
>     that can assist us in defining the most humane and appropriate ways
>     to manage environmental and human affairs. This is essentially the
>     function of government. With computers processing trillions of bits
>     of information per second, existing technologies far exceed the
>     human capacity for processing information and they can arrive at
>     equitable and sustainable decisions about the development and
>     distribution of physical resources. With this potential, we would
>     evolve beyond political decisions made on the basis of power and
>     advantage.
> 
> 
>     Further readings on cybernetics:
> 
> 
>     http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASC/CYBERNETICS.html
> 
>     http://www.thevenusproject.com/images/stories/a-designingthefuturee-book.pdf
> 
>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viable_System_Model
>     http://www.metaphorum.org/govpol.htm
> 
> 
> 
>     --- On *Thu, 9/17/09, Michel Bauwens /<michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>     <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>/* wrote:
> 
> 
>         From: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>         <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>         Subject: Re: Cybernetics the missing piece for partnership state
>         and steady state economy?
>         To: "Alton Lindsay Jr." <junioreality at yahoo.com
>         <mailto:junioreality at yahoo.com>>
>         Date: Thursday, September 17, 2009, 10:59 PM
> 
>         Dear Alton:
> 
>         Would you like to write an intro to that video, which we could
>         show on the site, and explain how you see the connection with
>         steady state and p2p?
> 
>         In any case, thanks for the references!
> 
>         It's not an area I'm well versed in myself,
> 
>         Michel
> 
>         On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Alton Lindsay Jr.
>         <junioreality at yahoo.com
>         <http://mc/compose?to=junioreality@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> 
>             Hello, I've recently became a big reader of your p2p blog
>             and i thought you would find this video and readings on
>             Cybernetics interesting and a possible solution for
>             establishing a partnership state and a steady state economy.
> 
>             http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASC/CYBERNETICS.html
>             http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrgRJiJBU2I&feature=related
>             <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrgRJiJBU2I&feature=related>
>             http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viable_System_Model
>             http://www.metaphorum.org/govpol.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>         -- 
>         Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>         Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think
>         thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> 
>         P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>         http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> 
>         Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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> 
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>         http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> 
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> 
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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