[p2p-research] What's different about this economic downturn? -- the severe unemployment

Mon Sep 7 17:54:54 CEST 2009

Hi Ryan,

not sure what you "doubt it' refers to? I agree with your assessment of
colonialism,

I was more specifically focused on the independence of government from
private, as opposed to general business and social interests,

my observation is that European governments, with the exception of Italy,
are less bound to specific predatory business interest .. of course european
gov's will promote 'their companies', but in general policymaking, there is
less policy corruption, even as perhaps individual companies may be 'more'
corrupt, as you suggest,

Michel

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Again, I doubt it.  Europe is still a hot bed for ugly
> colonialism...particularly the UK and France.  Governments are regularly
> corrupt in these countries in foreign dealings.  I think the Nordic nations
> lead...along with New Zealand and a few others in good governance...but
> there is still a lot of corruption...Sweden and Iceland both recently had
> big bouts...and no one but Japan is more corrupt in their dealings on
> fishing treaties than the Nordic nations...and it matters to them.
>
> I agree there is little value in comparing cultures.  Feelings run deep
> even for those who see themselves as internationalists.  But I always run
> into the European perception that they are clean while the US is dirty.
> I've had the discussion with many experts...it just isn't so as understood
> in academia and development economics.  Most development economists I know
> think France is a great beast in the current world...Haiti, Francophone
> Africa, etc.  But they present themselves as moral leaders.  Even Holland
> still has some ugly issues in the Caribbean and Belgium has never stepped up
> to its own responsibilities in the Congo.  The UK's failure in adequately
> supporting the Commonweath goes without saying.  Spain really does a modicum
> of work in the Spanish new world...it really is unfortunate.
>
> US schools still overwhelmingly include more expats than Europe or anywhere
> else.  American graduate schools train the best Indians, Koreans, Russians
> and even Chinese now, regularly...it is a win/win, but some of that
> knowledge filters back in huge ways...and the Chinese, Indians and Koreans
> especially know this.
>
>   On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I would venture that, with the exception of Berlusconi's Italy, most
>> European governments are substantially less in the pocket of private
>> interests.
>>
>> Comparing cultures is a tricky business. In many countries, European
>> companies would be internally more hierarchical than U.S. companies, less so
>> than Japanese ones ... though that is compensated by stronger employee
>> rights in Europe, and the collective culture of East Asia (i.e.
>> paternalistic goodwill to the whole community of employees)
>>
>> Gauging 'efficiency' in different models is difficult, because they are
>> most like more efficient in different areas ...
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>   On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> > Hi Andrew, I'll leave it up to your judgment, I must admit never having
>>> > heard of objective metrics proven American companies to be  better than
>>> > European ones, whether there is a U.S. superiority. It is true that
>>> U.S.
>>> > workers generally work longer hours than their European counterpart,
>>> but I
>>> > have yet to see that this improves their decision-making. Anyway, that
>>> could
>>> > be my own euro-bias about well-rested minds, having a healthy social
>>> life
>>> > and time to read things that are unrelated to the job at hand. But I
>>> welcome
>>> > any stats that disprove this.
>>> >
>>> > Apart from that, your arguments complement rather than contradict my
>>> > comparison with the East Asian choice of using more people for the same
>>> work
>>> > amount. In addition, educational levels still have to catch up (of
>>> course
>>> > this is only true 'on average', there are plenty of outstanding people
>>> on
>>> > this side of the ocean).
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> Heh,
>>>
>>> As an American who has worked for American companies for 2 decades, I
>>> can tell you that American companies can and do outperform Euopean
>>> companies in the following areas:
>>>
>>> 1. Financial fraud: I would venture to guess that there is far more
>>> financial fraud happening in US companies than European
>>>
>>> 2. Overcompensation of executives: Surely, American corporate
>>> executives are the most overcompensated people on the face of this
>>> planet. Please correct me if I am wrong.
>>>
>>> 3. Government lobbying: American corporations are just really, really
>>> good at lobbying the US government into subsidizing their existence. I
>>> would go so far as to suggest that many of America's largest
>>> corporations would not even be able to remain in existence without the
>>> subsidization and favoritism of government (nevermind that small
>>> business, which receives basically no subsidy, is around 50% of US
>>> GDP)
>>>
>>> 4. Public Relations manipulation: Come on, no one can manipulate and
>>> lie to the public like American companies!
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Sam Rose
>>> Social Synergy
>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>> skype: samuelrose
>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>> http://notanemployee.net
>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>
>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
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>
>
> --
>  Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

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