[p2p-research] P2P Ideology

Michel Bauwens michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Thu Oct 22 05:08:51 CEST 2009 

how would you like to approach this discussion on broadness?

the following still has 'broad validity' to me:

Mission and Objectives

*The Foundation for P2P
Alternatives<http://p2pfoundation.net/The_Foundation_for_P2P_Alternatives>
* proposes to be a meeting place for those who can broadly agree with the
following propositions, which are also argued in the essay or book in
progress, P2P and Human Evolution:

   - that peer-to-peer based technology reflects a change of consciousness
   towards participation, and in turn strengthens it


   - that the "distributed network" format, expressed in the specific manner
   of peer to peer relations, is a new form of political organizing and
   subjectivity, and an alternative for the current political/economic order,
   which though it does not offer solutions per se, points the way to a variety
   of dialogical and self-organizing formats, i.e. it represents different
   processes for arriving at such solutions; it ushers in a era of
   ‘nonrepresentational democracy’, where an increasing number of people are
   able to manage their social and productive life through the use of a variety
   of autonomous and interdependent networks and peer circles; that global
   governance, and the global market will be, and will have to be, more
   influenced by modes of governance involving multistakeholdership


   - that it creates a new public domain, an information commons, which
   should be protected and extended, especially in the domain of common
   knowledge creation; and that this domain, where the cost of reproducing
   knowledge is near zero, requires fundamental changes in the intellectual
   property regime, as reflected by new forms such as the free software
   movement; that universal common property regimes, i.e. modes of peer
   property, such as the General Public Licese and the Creative Commons
   licenses should be promoted and extended


   - that the principles developed by the free software movement, in
   particular the General Public License, and the general principles behind the
   open source and open access movements, provides for models that could be
   used in other areas of social and productive life


   - that it reconnects with the older traditions and attempts for a more
   cooperative social order, but this time obviates the need for
   authoritarianism and centralization; it has the potential of showing that
   the new more egalitarian digital culture, is connected to the older
   traditions of cooperation of the workers and peasants, and to the search for
   an engaged and meaningful life as expressed in one’s work, which becomes an
   expression of individual and collective creativity, rather than as a
   salaried means of survival


   - that it offers youth a vision of renewal and hope, to create a world
   that is more in tune with their values; that it creates a new language and
   discourse in tune with the new historical phase of ‘cognitive capitalism’;
   P2P is a language which every ‘digital youngster’ can understand. However,
   'peer to peer theory' addresses itself not just to the network-enabled and
   to knowledge workers, but to the whole of civil society (the 'multitudes'),
   and to whoever agrees that the core of decision-making should be located in
   civil society, and not in the market or in the state, and that the latters
   should be the servants of civil society


   - it combines subjectivity (new values), intersubjectivity (new
   relations), objectivity (an enabling technology) and interobjectivity (new
   forms of organization) that mutually strengthen each other in a positive
   feedback loop, and it is clearly on the offensive and growing, but lacking
   ‘political self-consciousness’. It is this form of awareness that the P2P
   Foundation wants to promote.

*The Foundation for P2P
Alternatives<http://p2pfoundation.net/The_Foundation_for_P2P_Alternatives>
* would address the following issues:

   - P2P currently exists in discrete separate movements and projects but
   these different movements are often unaware of the common P2P ethos that
   binds them


   - thus, there is a need for a common initiative, which


   1. brings information together;
   2. connects people and mutually informs them
   3. strives for integrative insights coming from the many subfields;
   4. can organize events for reflection and action;
   5. can educate people about critical and creative tools for world-making


   - the Foundation would be a matrix or womb which would inspire the
   creation and linking of other nodes active in the P2P field, organized
   around topics and common interests, locality, and any form of identity and
   organization which makes sense for the people involved


   - the zero node website, i.e. the site of the P2P Foundation, would have
   a website with directories, an electronic newsletter and blog, and a
   magazine. It aims to be one of the places where people can interconnect and
   strengthen each other, and discuss topics of common interest.

Michel Bauwens <http://p2pfoundation.net/Michel_Bauwens>, November 29, 2005


On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Athina Karatzogianni
<athina.k at gmail.com>wrote:

> Thanks michel, that is indeed so and your approach is fair, nevertheless,
> it d be interesting to know how broad the ideology of this community is, I
> think maybe thats what the discussion should focus on......
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Athina,
>>
>> In the sense that you indicate, I do certainly, in the context of the P2P
>> Theory that I'm developing, have such a 'ideology', i.e. a program for
>> action and change which has specifics, and potentially creates boundaries
>> for inclusion/exclusion. However, the p2p platform is broader than my own
>> personal ideas on the topic. I don't hide them, they are there for all to
>> see, but I do not claim they represent the views of the platform or
>> community, though again, the fact that I hold them, has an infuence on the
>> kind of platform and community it represents.
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Athina Karatzogianni <
>> athina.k at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> I wish at the moment I had the luxury of time, but as I am in Shanghai
>>> and exhibiting my capacity for sustaining boredom in meetings, just a couple
>>> of things to feedback to the substantial comments so far.
>>>
>>> Matt has pointed to the inevitable social and politico-economic
>>> implications of p2p, and Paul raised the issue of the difficulty in living
>>> by the high moral ground, which are both, entirely valid observations. The
>>> problematic truly begins after these observations in what Sam, Stan and
>>> Michel are debating on in relation to ideology. Both Michel and Sam have a
>>> negative understanding of ideology. The former mentions it as a mechanism
>>> for exploitation and exclusion, as did some of you as well on the exclusion
>>> point, while the latter placed it against culture and the p2p process
>>> itself.
>>>
>>> I tend to agree with Ryan, we cannot avoid the topic of ideology, power
>>> decision making, leadership emergence, it will keep coming back in the
>>> everyday life of this movement to haunt as again and again and in the bigger
>>> choices we will be asked to make. Stan wrote I think that we have to have a
>>> clear signal to send. No one can get away with no strategy, no clear
>>> identity, no message framing, no clear compass. No movement ever succeeded
>>> with no ideology or a parallelogram of ideologies with a common
>>> root/denominator. I am not sure being a 'bat' neither a mammal nor bird, a
>>> Switzerland, however admirable, is a solution so we can be friends with
>>> everyone under the sun. I dont want to be friends and collaborate with
>>> fascists, racists, or totalitarians to name a few for example. So yes, I d
>>> like to exclude, and ideology helps you do that however fuzzy the spectrum
>>> may be. It is idiotic to be politically neutral in the fear of alienating
>>> potential partners or collaborators. I am not an intellectual whore and none
>>> of you have given me the impression that you are so far. So yes, there is a
>>> question of ideology and in my humble opinion, openness is one thing, being
>>> undefined altogether is another.
>>>
>>> I hope you forgive my harried response. I should hope to be able to think
>>> about this a bit more and write again soon.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Athina
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ryan,
>>>>
>>>> I usually understand very clearly what you say, no question about it,
>>>> your prose is clear, but this time, I don't really know what you are saying?
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>   On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anything that causes identification will cause exclusion, elitism and
>>>>> boundaries.  P2P is an identification.  There is nothing about it that is
>>>>> inherently new as a political ideology, which it plainly is.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no escaping the reality of politics: Power, governance, rules,
>>>>> decision processes.  Those who wish to avoid those topics, to me, are
>>>>> irresponsible.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is different about P2P is that it sets values some people can
>>>>> agree with who find it difficult to agree with other political systems.
>>>>> There is nothing new here but the ethos itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ryan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It all depends on what we call ideology ... In the old marxist sense,
>>>>>> it meant a set of ideas that justify a social order and a privileged group
>>>>>> position's within it ... so ideology is 'false' by definition ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, none of us can be totally free of our social conditioning (the
>>>>>> constraints of the society we live in), our our social class, our personal
>>>>>> history and limitations of consciousness ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Definitely, I think we can say that what we call peer to peer, or
>>>>>> openness, or the commons, is a broad value system that has particular
>>>>>> distinctions, but it is at the same time a spectrum ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can compare it to the socialist idea, which had a wide spectrum of
>>>>>> adherents, while also substantially altering what non-socialist people would
>>>>>> think ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In particular I do think there is a netarchical ideology in the old
>>>>>> sense, in which a privileged sector of capital, can use open and commons and
>>>>>> peer to peer language, in order to justify its own position ..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Within the P2P Foundation, I try to bring together lots of material
>>>>>> representing the wide spectrum of p2p sensibilities and practices, aim to
>>>>>> bring a platform for such varied thinking, but at the same time, I have my
>>>>>> own set of ideas and theories, based on my own synthesis and deduction of
>>>>>> what I'm privileged to observe ... It's open to debate, but at the same
>>>>>> time, as part of the 1% of people doing most of the work, it is bound to
>>>>>> have a greater effect on what appears to the outside as 'associated with the
>>>>>> P2P Foundation'. While it is clear to me what the difference is between my
>>>>>> version of P2P Theory and the P2P Foundation's ecology as a platform, that
>>>>>> may not always be the case to the outside ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two typical complaints are, from the right, that we are too orientated
>>>>>> towards the left, see Ryan's perception that he is in a minority as a
>>>>>> liberal; but I get similar complains from the radical left, with people
>>>>>> telling me they feel 'sick in the stomach' with what they feel are 'our'
>>>>>> compromises with capital ... Whatever, I, and we do, whatever we say,
>>>>>> however we sway in one or another direction, there will always be
>>>>>> boundaries, that act as self-regulated exclusion and inclusion filters ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and perhaps Sam is right that the more we 'specify', the more we
>>>>>> exclude ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My take is, keep it a open platform, for people 'sympathetic' to the
>>>>>> broad value system, be clear and transparent, as I try to be, about your own
>>>>>> positions, and be open to dialogue at all times ... The boundaries to me is
>>>>>> both the content and the style of communication which would actively demean
>>>>>> other humans (as in racism, etc..), but also people who consciously favour
>>>>>> the opposite values of p2p ... I honour their right to think differently,
>>>>>> but feel there are enough outside places for them to communicate ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some boundaries we only discover when they are crossed ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Think about the nature of of online systems like wikipedia, when
>>>>>>> dogma
>>>>>>> begins to rule, or open source software cultures that begin to take
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> an ideological direction (we talked about this at Political Economies
>>>>>>> of Peer production back in 2007)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When ideological-driven thinking emerges, the nature of the system
>>>>>>> starts to favor exclusion over inclusion. This begins to erode the
>>>>>>> "commons" that is the participatory culture of the system. The system
>>>>>>> is now changing from one state to another, from a "p2p" state to a
>>>>>>> system that is ruled by a few.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Luckily, the affordances of commons based systems tend to be able to
>>>>>>> survive this co-optation, people have the ability to leave and reform
>>>>>>> elsewhere (although forking is not often exercised in the case of
>>>>>>> wikipedia). Particularly within the last 2-3 years, when commons
>>>>>>> consist of mostly digital content, it has become quite trivial to
>>>>>>> expand space, and re-boot the system, so to speak
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Where what we are calling "P2P" begins to resemble and function
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> > an ideology, the culture attracted will begin to disaggregate. What
>>>>>>> > will be left is an ideology that is fundamentally not what we are
>>>>>>> > calling "P2P'.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Matt Cooperrider
>>>>>>> > <mattcooperrider at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >> I'm forking this out from the discussion "Is the P2PFoundation a
>>>>>>> Shill for
>>>>>>> >> Proprietary  Software?"  The question of whether P2P is an
>>>>>>> ideology needs
>>>>>>> >> discussing.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> -----
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Athina wrote:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>> It seems this raises again the issue of ideology I think in p2p
>>>>>>> which so
>>>>>>> >>> far has been a bit conveniently thrown under the carpet,
>>>>>>> especially in
>>>>>>> >>> relation to the commercialization and promotion of the open
>>>>>>> source and
>>>>>>> >>> open
>>>>>>> >>> products in general.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Kevin wrote:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> I don't think it's been thrown under the carpet at all.  Upon
>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>> >> inspection, the notion of a general ideology in p2p itself is a
>>>>>>> nonsensical
>>>>>>> >> concept.  P2P is a phenomenon / process.  Participants may have
>>>>>>> diverse
>>>>>>> >> ideologies (e.g. profit-only vs freedom-only), but as long as they
>>>>>>> agree on
>>>>>>> >> the basic principles of production, that doesn't impact the
>>>>>>> process.
>>>>>>> >> Ideological differences can and do impact organizations
>>>>>>> participating in p2p
>>>>>>> >> production, and that has come up regularly (e.g. Wikipedia).
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> -------
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> I don't have much of an argument, but I wanted to invite others to
>>>>>>> discuss
>>>>>>> >> (particularly to invite Athina to rebut, and Kevin to expand on
>>>>>>> his close
>>>>>>> >> inspection).
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> I agree with Kevin that there is no "general ideology in p2p
>>>>>>> itself", but
>>>>>>> >> the notion of "p2p itself" brackets the historical context.
>>>>>>> Employing p2p's
>>>>>>> >> "basic principles of production" in 2009 has potentially huge
>>>>>>> political and
>>>>>>> >> social implications.  Those of us who work to advance "p2p
>>>>>>> alternatives" do
>>>>>>> >> so because p2p processes (maybe not in every case, but when
>>>>>>> considered
>>>>>>> >> together) privilege certain outcomes that we prefer.  Our
>>>>>>> preferences need
>>>>>>> >> to be examined.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Best,
>>>>>>> >> Matt
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>> >> Matt Cooperrider, Consultant
>>>>>>> >> SITE: http://mattcoop.com
>>>>>>> >> SITE: http://collabforge.com
>>>>>>> >> TWITTER: @mattcoop
>>>>>>> >> PHONE: 774.487.8152
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>> > Sam Rose
>>>>>>> > Social Synergy
>>>>>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>>>>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.com
>>>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>>>> > http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>>>> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>>>> > http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>>>> > http://notanemployee.net
>>>>>>> > http://communitywiki.org
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>>>> > ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>>>> Social Synergy
>>>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>>>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>>>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>>>> http://notanemployee.net
>>>>>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think
>>>>>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>>>> P.O. Box 633
>>>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>>>> Cayman Islands
>>>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dr Athina Karatzogianni
>>> Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
>>> The Dean's Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
>>> Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
>>> The University of Hull
>>> United Kingdom
>>> HU6 7RX
>>> T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
>>> F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107
>>>
>>> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
>>>
>>> Check out Athina's work
>>>
>>> http://browse.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?ath=A+Karatzogianni
>>>
>>> Check Virtual Communication Collaboration and Conflict (Virt3C)
>>> Conference Call
>>> http://virt3c.wordpress.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dr Athina Karatzogianni
> Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
> The Dean's Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
> Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
> The University of Hull
> United Kingdom
> HU6 7RX
> T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
> F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107
> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
>
> Check out Athina's work
> http://browse.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?ath=A+Karatzogianni
>
> Check Virtual Communication Collaboration and Conflict (Virt3C) Conference
> Call
> http://virt3c.wordpress.com/
>



-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20091022/55c22abc/attachment-0001.html>

More information about the p2presearch mailing list