[p2p-research] P2P Ideology

Wed Oct 21 18:09:49 CEST 2009

Thanks michel, that is indeed so and your approach is fair, nevertheless, it
d be interesting to know how broad the ideology of this community is, I
think maybe thats what the discussion should focus on......

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Athina,
>
> In the sense that you indicate, I do certainly, in the context of the P2P
> Theory that I'm developing, have such a 'ideology', i.e. a program for
> action and change which has specifics, and potentially creates boundaries
> for inclusion/exclusion. However, the p2p platform is broader than my own
> personal ideas on the topic. I don't hide them, they are there for all to
> see, but I do not claim they represent the views of the platform or
> community, though again, the fact that I hold them, has an infuence on the
> kind of platform and community it represents.
>
> Michel
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Athina Karatzogianni <athina.k at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I wish at the moment I had the luxury of time, but as I am in Shanghai and
>> exhibiting my capacity for sustaining boredom in meetings, just a couple of
>> things to feedback to the substantial comments so far.
>>
>> Matt has pointed to the inevitable social and politico-economic
>> implications of p2p, and Paul raised the issue of the difficulty in living
>> by the high moral ground, which are both, entirely valid observations. The
>> problematic truly begins after these observations in what Sam, Stan and
>> Michel are debating on in relation to ideology. Both Michel and Sam have a
>> negative understanding of ideology. The former mentions it as a mechanism
>> for exploitation and exclusion, as did some of you as well on the exclusion
>> point, while the latter placed it against culture and the p2p process
>> itself.
>>
>> I tend to agree with Ryan, we cannot avoid the topic of ideology, power
>> decision making, leadership emergence, it will keep coming back in the
>> everyday life of this movement to haunt as again and again and in the bigger
>> choices we will be asked to make. Stan wrote I think that we have to have a
>> clear signal to send. No one can get away with no strategy, no clear
>> identity, no message framing, no clear compass. No movement ever succeeded
>> with no ideology or a parallelogram of ideologies with a common
>> root/denominator. I am not sure being a 'bat' neither a mammal nor bird, a
>> Switzerland, however admirable, is a solution so we can be friends with
>> everyone under the sun. I dont want to be friends and collaborate with
>> fascists, racists, or totalitarians to name a few for example. So yes, I d
>> like to exclude, and ideology helps you do that however fuzzy the spectrum
>> may be. It is idiotic to be politically neutral in the fear of alienating
>> potential partners or collaborators. I am not an intellectual whore and none
>> of you have given me the impression that you are so far. So yes, there is a
>> question of ideology and in my humble opinion, openness is one thing, being
>> undefined altogether is another.
>>
>> I hope you forgive my harried response. I should hope to be able to think
>> about this a bit more and write again soon.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Athina
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ryan,
>>>
>>> I usually understand very clearly what you say, no question about it,
>>> your prose is clear, but this time, I don't really know what you are saying?
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>   On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anything that causes identification will cause exclusion, elitism and
>>>> boundaries.  P2P is an identification.  There is nothing about it that is
>>>> inherently new as a political ideology, which it plainly is.
>>>>
>>>> There is no escaping the reality of politics: Power, governance, rules,
>>>> decision processes.  Those who wish to avoid those topics, to me, are
>>>> irresponsible.
>>>>
>>>> What is different about P2P is that it sets values some people can agree
>>>> with who find it difficult to agree with other political systems.   There is
>>>> nothing new here but the ethos itself.
>>>>
>>>> Ryan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It all depends on what we call ideology ... In the old marxist sense,
>>>>> it meant a set of ideas that justify a social order and a privileged group
>>>>> position's within it ... so ideology is 'false' by definition ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, none of us can be totally free of our social conditioning (the
>>>>> constraints of the society we live in), our our social class, our personal
>>>>> history and limitations of consciousness ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Definitely, I think we can say that what we call peer to peer, or
>>>>> openness, or the commons, is a broad value system that has particular
>>>>> distinctions, but it is at the same time a spectrum ...
>>>>>
>>>>> We can compare it to the socialist idea, which had a wide spectrum of
>>>>> adherents, while also substantially altering what non-socialist people would
>>>>> think ...
>>>>>
>>>>> In particular I do think there is a netarchical ideology in the old
>>>>> sense, in which a privileged sector of capital, can use open and commons and
>>>>> peer to peer language, in order to justify its own position ..
>>>>>
>>>>> Within the P2P Foundation, I try to bring together lots of material
>>>>> representing the wide spectrum of p2p sensibilities and practices, aim to
>>>>> bring a platform for such varied thinking, but at the same time, I have my
>>>>> own set of ideas and theories, based on my own synthesis and deduction of
>>>>> what I'm privileged to observe ... It's open to debate, but at the same
>>>>> time, as part of the 1% of people doing most of the work, it is bound to
>>>>> have a greater effect on what appears to the outside as 'associated with the
>>>>> P2P Foundation'. While it is clear to me what the difference is between my
>>>>> version of P2P Theory and the P2P Foundation's ecology as a platform, that
>>>>> may not always be the case to the outside ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Two typical complaints are, from the right, that we are too orientated
>>>>> towards the left, see Ryan's perception that he is in a minority as a
>>>>> liberal; but I get similar complains from the radical left, with people
>>>>> telling me they feel 'sick in the stomach' with what they feel are 'our'
>>>>> compromises with capital ... Whatever, I, and we do, whatever we say,
>>>>> however we sway in one or another direction, there will always be
>>>>> boundaries, that act as self-regulated exclusion and inclusion filters ...
>>>>>
>>>>> and perhaps Sam is right that the more we 'specify', the more we
>>>>> exclude ...
>>>>>
>>>>> My take is, keep it a open platform, for people 'sympathetic' to the
>>>>> broad value system, be clear and transparent, as I try to be, about your own
>>>>> positions, and be open to dialogue at all times ... The boundaries to me is
>>>>> both the content and the style of communication which would actively demean
>>>>> other humans (as in racism, etc..), but also people who consciously favour
>>>>> the opposite values of p2p ... I honour their right to think differently,
>>>>> but feel there are enough outside places for them to communicate ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Some boundaries we only discover when they are crossed ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Think about the nature of of online systems like wikipedia, when dogma
>>>>>> begins to rule, or open source software cultures that begin to take on
>>>>>> an ideological direction (we talked about this at Political Economies
>>>>>> of Peer production back in 2007)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When ideological-driven thinking emerges, the nature of the system
>>>>>> starts to favor exclusion over inclusion. This begins to erode the
>>>>>> "commons" that is the participatory culture of the system. The system
>>>>>> is now changing from one state to another, from a "p2p" state to a
>>>>>> system that is ruled by a few.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Luckily, the affordances of commons based systems tend to be able to
>>>>>> survive this co-optation, people have the ability to leave and reform
>>>>>> elsewhere (although forking is not often exercised in the case of
>>>>>> wikipedia). Particularly within the last 2-3 years, when commons
>>>>>> consist of mostly digital content, it has become quite trivial to
>>>>>> expand space, and re-boot the system, so to speak
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> > Where what we are calling "P2P" begins to resemble and function like
>>>>>> > an ideology, the culture attracted will begin to disaggregate. What
>>>>>> > will be left is an ideology that is fundamentally not what we are
>>>>>> > calling "P2P'.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Matt Cooperrider
>>>>>> > <mattcooperrider at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> I'm forking this out from the discussion "Is the P2PFoundation a
>>>>>> Shill for
>>>>>> >> Proprietary  Software?"  The question of whether P2P is an ideology
>>>>>> needs
>>>>>> >> discussing.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> -----
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Athina wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> It seems this raises again the issue of ideology I think in p2p
>>>>>> which so
>>>>>> >>> far has been a bit conveniently thrown under the carpet,
>>>>>> especially in
>>>>>> >>> relation to the commercialization and promotion of the open source
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> >>> open
>>>>>> >>> products in general.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Kevin wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I don't think it's been thrown under the carpet at all.  Upon close
>>>>>> >> inspection, the notion of a general ideology in p2p itself is a
>>>>>> nonsensical
>>>>>> >> concept.  P2P is a phenomenon / process.  Participants may have
>>>>>> diverse
>>>>>> >> ideologies (e.g. profit-only vs freedom-only), but as long as they
>>>>>> agree on
>>>>>> >> the basic principles of production, that doesn't impact the
>>>>>> process.
>>>>>> >> Ideological differences can and do impact organizations
>>>>>> participating in p2p
>>>>>> >> production, and that has come up regularly (e.g. Wikipedia).
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> -------
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I don't have much of an argument, but I wanted to invite others to
>>>>>> discuss
>>>>>> >> (particularly to invite Athina to rebut, and Kevin to expand on his
>>>>>> close
>>>>>> >> inspection).
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I agree with Kevin that there is no "general ideology in p2p
>>>>>> itself", but
>>>>>> >> the notion of "p2p itself" brackets the historical context.
>>>>>> Employing p2p's
>>>>>> >> "basic principles of production" in 2009 has potentially huge
>>>>>> political and
>>>>>> >> social implications.  Those of us who work to advance "p2p
>>>>>> alternatives" do
>>>>>> >> so because p2p processes (maybe not in every case, but when
>>>>>> considered
>>>>>> >> together) privilege certain outcomes that we prefer.  Our
>>>>>> preferences need
>>>>>> >> to be examined.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Best,
>>>>>> >> Matt
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>> >> Matt Cooperrider, Consultant
>>>>>> >> SITE: http://mattcoop.com
>>>>>> >> SITE: http://collabforge.com
>>>>>> >> TWITTER: @mattcoop
>>>>>> >> PHONE: 774.487.8152
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > --
>>>>>> > --
>>>>>> > Sam Rose
>>>>>> > Social Synergy
>>>>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>>>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.com
>>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>>> > http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>>> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>>> > http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>>> > http://notanemployee.net
>>>>>> > http://communitywiki.org
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>>> > ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>>> Social Synergy
>>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>>> http://notanemployee.net
>>>>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>>
>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ryan Lanham
>>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>>> P.O. Box 633
>>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>>> Cayman Islands
>>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr Athina Karatzogianni
>> Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
>> The Dean's Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
>> Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
>> The University of Hull
>> United Kingdom
>> HU6 7RX
>> T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
>> F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107
>> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
>>
>> Check out Athina's work
>>
>> http://browse.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?ath=A+Karatzogianni
>>
>> Check Virtual Communication Collaboration and Conflict (Virt3C) Conference
>> Call
>> http://virt3c.wordpress.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Dr Athina Karatzogianni
Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
The Dean's Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
The University of Hull
United Kingdom
HU6 7RX
T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107
http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/

Check out Athina's work
http://browse.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?ath=A+Karatzogianni

Check Virtual Communication Collaboration and Conflict (Virt3C) Conference
Call
http://virt3c.wordpress.com/
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