[p2p-research] P2P Ideology

Wed Oct 21 18:01:23 CEST 2009

Hi Athina,

In the sense that you indicate, I do certainly, in the context of the P2P
Theory that I'm developing, have such a 'ideology', i.e. a program for
action and change which has specifics, and potentially creates boundaries
for inclusion/exclusion. However, the p2p platform is broader than my own
personal ideas on the topic. I don't hide them, they are there for all to
see, but I do not claim they represent the views of the platform or
community, though again, the fact that I hold them, has an infuence on the
kind of platform and community it represents.

Michel

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Athina Karatzogianni
<athina.k at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> I wish at the moment I had the luxury of time, but as I am in Shanghai and
> exhibiting my capacity for sustaining boredom in meetings, just a couple of
> things to feedback to the substantial comments so far.
>
> Matt has pointed to the inevitable social and politico-economic
> implications of p2p, and Paul raised the issue of the difficulty in living
> by the high moral ground, which are both, entirely valid observations. The
> problematic truly begins after these observations in what Sam, Stan and
> Michel are debating on in relation to ideology. Both Michel and Sam have a
> negative understanding of ideology. The former mentions it as a mechanism
> for exploitation and exclusion, as did some of you as well on the exclusion
> point, while the latter placed it against culture and the p2p process
> itself.
>
> I tend to agree with Ryan, we cannot avoid the topic of ideology, power
> decision making, leadership emergence, it will keep coming back in the
> everyday life of this movement to haunt as again and again and in the bigger
> choices we will be asked to make. Stan wrote I think that we have to have a
> clear signal to send. No one can get away with no strategy, no clear
> identity, no message framing, no clear compass. No movement ever succeeded
> with no ideology or a parallelogram of ideologies with a common
> root/denominator. I am not sure being a 'bat' neither a mammal nor bird, a
> Switzerland, however admirable, is a solution so we can be friends with
> everyone under the sun. I dont want to be friends and collaborate with
> fascists, racists, or totalitarians to name a few for example. So yes, I d
> like to exclude, and ideology helps you do that however fuzzy the spectrum
> may be. It is idiotic to be politically neutral in the fear of alienating
> potential partners or collaborators. I am not an intellectual whore and none
> of you have given me the impression that you are so far. So yes, there is a
> question of ideology and in my humble opinion, openness is one thing, being
> undefined altogether is another.
>
> I hope you forgive my harried response. I should hope to be able to think
> about this a bit more and write again soon.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Athina
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> I usually understand very clearly what you say, no question about it, your
>> prose is clear, but this time, I don't really know what you are saying?
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>   On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Anything that causes identification will cause exclusion, elitism and
>>> boundaries.  P2P is an identification.  There is nothing about it that is
>>> inherently new as a political ideology, which it plainly is.
>>>
>>> There is no escaping the reality of politics: Power, governance, rules,
>>> decision processes.  Those who wish to avoid those topics, to me, are
>>> irresponsible.
>>>
>>> What is different about P2P is that it sets values some people can agree
>>> with who find it difficult to agree with other political systems.   There is
>>> nothing new here but the ethos itself.
>>>
>>> Ryan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> It all depends on what we call ideology ... In the old marxist sense, it
>>>> meant a set of ideas that justify a social order and a privileged group
>>>> position's within it ... so ideology is 'false' by definition ...
>>>>
>>>> Now, none of us can be totally free of our social conditioning (the
>>>> constraints of the society we live in), our our social class, our personal
>>>> history and limitations of consciousness ...
>>>>
>>>> Definitely, I think we can say that what we call peer to peer, or
>>>> openness, or the commons, is a broad value system that has particular
>>>> distinctions, but it is at the same time a spectrum ...
>>>>
>>>> We can compare it to the socialist idea, which had a wide spectrum of
>>>> adherents, while also substantially altering what non-socialist people would
>>>> think ...
>>>>
>>>> In particular I do think there is a netarchical ideology in the old
>>>> sense, in which a privileged sector of capital, can use open and commons and
>>>> peer to peer language, in order to justify its own position ..
>>>>
>>>> Within the P2P Foundation, I try to bring together lots of material
>>>> representing the wide spectrum of p2p sensibilities and practices, aim to
>>>> bring a platform for such varied thinking, but at the same time, I have my
>>>> own set of ideas and theories, based on my own synthesis and deduction of
>>>> what I'm privileged to observe ... It's open to debate, but at the same
>>>> time, as part of the 1% of people doing most of the work, it is bound to
>>>> have a greater effect on what appears to the outside as 'associated with the
>>>> P2P Foundation'. While it is clear to me what the difference is between my
>>>> version of P2P Theory and the P2P Foundation's ecology as a platform, that
>>>> may not always be the case to the outside ...
>>>>
>>>> Two typical complaints are, from the right, that we are too orientated
>>>> towards the left, see Ryan's perception that he is in a minority as a
>>>> liberal; but I get similar complains from the radical left, with people
>>>> telling me they feel 'sick in the stomach' with what they feel are 'our'
>>>> compromises with capital ... Whatever, I, and we do, whatever we say,
>>>> however we sway in one or another direction, there will always be
>>>> boundaries, that act as self-regulated exclusion and inclusion filters ...
>>>>
>>>> and perhaps Sam is right that the more we 'specify', the more we exclude
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> My take is, keep it a open platform, for people 'sympathetic' to the
>>>> broad value system, be clear and transparent, as I try to be, about your own
>>>> positions, and be open to dialogue at all times ... The boundaries to me is
>>>> both the content and the style of communication which would actively demean
>>>> other humans (as in racism, etc..), but also people who consciously favour
>>>> the opposite values of p2p ... I honour their right to think differently,
>>>> but feel there are enough outside places for them to communicate ...
>>>>
>>>> Some boundaries we only discover when they are crossed ...
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Think about the nature of of online systems like wikipedia, when dogma
>>>>> begins to rule, or open source software cultures that begin to take on
>>>>> an ideological direction (we talked about this at Political Economies
>>>>> of Peer production back in 2007)
>>>>>
>>>>> When ideological-driven thinking emerges, the nature of the system
>>>>> starts to favor exclusion over inclusion. This begins to erode the
>>>>> "commons" that is the participatory culture of the system. The system
>>>>> is now changing from one state to another, from a "p2p" state to a
>>>>> system that is ruled by a few.
>>>>>
>>>>> Luckily, the affordances of commons based systems tend to be able to
>>>>> survive this co-optation, people have the ability to leave and reform
>>>>> elsewhere (although forking is not often exercised in the case of
>>>>> wikipedia). Particularly within the last 2-3 years, when commons
>>>>> consist of mostly digital content, it has become quite trivial to
>>>>> expand space, and re-boot the system, so to speak
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > Where what we are calling "P2P" begins to resemble and function like
>>>>> > an ideology, the culture attracted will begin to disaggregate. What
>>>>> > will be left is an ideology that is fundamentally not what we are
>>>>> > calling "P2P'.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Matt Cooperrider
>>>>> > <mattcooperrider at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> I'm forking this out from the discussion "Is the P2PFoundation a
>>>>> Shill for
>>>>> >> Proprietary  Software?"  The question of whether P2P is an ideology
>>>>> needs
>>>>> >> discussing.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> -----
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Athina wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> It seems this raises again the issue of ideology I think in p2p
>>>>> which so
>>>>> >>> far has been a bit conveniently thrown under the carpet, especially
>>>>> in
>>>>> >>> relation to the commercialization and promotion of the open source
>>>>> and
>>>>> >>> open
>>>>> >>> products in general.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Kevin wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I don't think it's been thrown under the carpet at all.  Upon close
>>>>> >> inspection, the notion of a general ideology in p2p itself is a
>>>>> nonsensical
>>>>> >> concept.  P2P is a phenomenon / process.  Participants may have
>>>>> diverse
>>>>> >> ideologies (e.g. profit-only vs freedom-only), but as long as they
>>>>> agree on
>>>>> >> the basic principles of production, that doesn't impact the process.
>>>>> >> Ideological differences can and do impact organizations
>>>>> participating in p2p
>>>>> >> production, and that has come up regularly (e.g. Wikipedia).
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> -------
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I don't have much of an argument, but I wanted to invite others to
>>>>> discuss
>>>>> >> (particularly to invite Athina to rebut, and Kevin to expand on his
>>>>> close
>>>>> >> inspection).
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I agree with Kevin that there is no "general ideology in p2p
>>>>> itself", but
>>>>> >> the notion of "p2p itself" brackets the historical context.
>>>>> Employing p2p's
>>>>> >> "basic principles of production" in 2009 has potentially huge
>>>>> political and
>>>>> >> social implications.  Those of us who work to advance "p2p
>>>>> alternatives" do
>>>>> >> so because p2p processes (maybe not in every case, but when
>>>>> considered
>>>>> >> together) privilege certain outcomes that we prefer.  Our
>>>>> preferences need
>>>>> >> to be examined.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Best,
>>>>> >> Matt
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> Matt Cooperrider, Consultant
>>>>> >> SITE: http://mattcoop.com
>>>>> >> SITE: http://collabforge.com
>>>>> >> TWITTER: @mattcoop
>>>>> >> PHONE: 774.487.8152
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> >>
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Sam Rose
>>>>> > Social Synergy
>>>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.com
>>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>> > http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>> > http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>> > http://notanemployee.net
>>>>> > http://communitywiki.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>> > ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sam Rose
>>>>> Social Synergy
>>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>>>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>>> http://notanemployee.net
>>>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>>>
>>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan Lanham
>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>> P.O. Box 633
>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>> Cayman Islands
>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dr Athina Karatzogianni
> Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
> The Dean's Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
> Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
> The University of Hull
> United Kingdom
> HU6 7RX
> T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
> F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107
> http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/
>
> Check out Athina's work
> http://browse.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?ath=A+Karatzogianni
>
> Check Virtual Communication Collaboration and Conflict (Virt3C) Conference
> Call
> http://virt3c.wordpress.com/
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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