[p2p-research] P2P Ideology

Wed Oct 21 17:02:10 CEST 2009

Hi Ryan,

I usually understand very clearly what you say, no question about it, your
prose is clear, but this time, I don't really know what you are saying?

Michel

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Anything that causes identification will cause exclusion, elitism and
> boundaries.  P2P is an identification.  There is nothing about it that is
> inherently new as a political ideology, which it plainly is.
>
> There is no escaping the reality of politics: Power, governance, rules,
> decision processes.  Those who wish to avoid those topics, to me, are
> irresponsible.
>
> What is different about P2P is that it sets values some people can agree
> with who find it difficult to agree with other political systems.   There is
> nothing new here but the ethos itself.
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> It all depends on what we call ideology ... In the old marxist sense, it
>> meant a set of ideas that justify a social order and a privileged group
>> position's within it ... so ideology is 'false' by definition ...
>>
>> Now, none of us can be totally free of our social conditioning (the
>> constraints of the society we live in), our our social class, our personal
>> history and limitations of consciousness ...
>>
>> Definitely, I think we can say that what we call peer to peer, or
>> openness, or the commons, is a broad value system that has particular
>> distinctions, but it is at the same time a spectrum ...
>>
>> We can compare it to the socialist idea, which had a wide spectrum of
>> adherents, while also substantially altering what non-socialist people would
>> think ...
>>
>> In particular I do think there is a netarchical ideology in the old sense,
>> in which a privileged sector of capital, can use open and commons and peer
>> to peer language, in order to justify its own position ..
>>
>> Within the P2P Foundation, I try to bring together lots of material
>> representing the wide spectrum of p2p sensibilities and practices, aim to
>> bring a platform for such varied thinking, but at the same time, I have my
>> own set of ideas and theories, based on my own synthesis and deduction of
>> what I'm privileged to observe ... It's open to debate, but at the same
>> time, as part of the 1% of people doing most of the work, it is bound to
>> have a greater effect on what appears to the outside as 'associated with the
>> P2P Foundation'. While it is clear to me what the difference is between my
>> version of P2P Theory and the P2P Foundation's ecology as a platform, that
>> may not always be the case to the outside ...
>>
>> Two typical complaints are, from the right, that we are too orientated
>> towards the left, see Ryan's perception that he is in a minority as a
>> liberal; but I get similar complains from the radical left, with people
>> telling me they feel 'sick in the stomach' with what they feel are 'our'
>> compromises with capital ... Whatever, I, and we do, whatever we say,
>> however we sway in one or another direction, there will always be
>> boundaries, that act as self-regulated exclusion and inclusion filters ...
>>
>> and perhaps Sam is right that the more we 'specify', the more we exclude
>> ...
>>
>> My take is, keep it a open platform, for people 'sympathetic' to the broad
>> value system, be clear and transparent, as I try to be, about your own
>> positions, and be open to dialogue at all times ... The boundaries to me is
>> both the content and the style of communication which would actively demean
>> other humans (as in racism, etc..), but also people who consciously favour
>> the opposite values of p2p ... I honour their right to think differently,
>> but feel there are enough outside places for them to communicate ...
>>
>> Some boundaries we only discover when they are crossed ...
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Think about the nature of of online systems like wikipedia, when dogma
>>> begins to rule, or open source software cultures that begin to take on
>>> an ideological direction (we talked about this at Political Economies
>>> of Peer production back in 2007)
>>>
>>> When ideological-driven thinking emerges, the nature of the system
>>> starts to favor exclusion over inclusion. This begins to erode the
>>> "commons" that is the participatory culture of the system. The system
>>> is now changing from one state to another, from a "p2p" state to a
>>> system that is ruled by a few.
>>>
>>> Luckily, the affordances of commons based systems tend to be able to
>>> survive this co-optation, people have the ability to leave and reform
>>> elsewhere (although forking is not often exercised in the case of
>>> wikipedia). Particularly within the last 2-3 years, when commons
>>> consist of mostly digital content, it has become quite trivial to
>>> expand space, and re-boot the system, so to speak
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Where what we are calling "P2P" begins to resemble and function like
>>> > an ideology, the culture attracted will begin to disaggregate. What
>>> > will be left is an ideology that is fundamentally not what we are
>>> > calling "P2P'.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Matt Cooperrider
>>> > <mattcooperrider at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> I'm forking this out from the discussion "Is the P2PFoundation a Shill
>>> for
>>> >> Proprietary  Software?"  The question of whether P2P is an ideology
>>> needs
>>> >> discussing.
>>> >>
>>> >> -----
>>> >>
>>> >> Athina wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> It seems this raises again the issue of ideology I think in p2p which
>>> so
>>> >>> far has been a bit conveniently thrown under the carpet, especially
>>> in
>>> >>> relation to the commercialization and promotion of the open source
>>> and
>>> >>> open
>>> >>> products in general.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> Kevin wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I don't think it's been thrown under the carpet at all.  Upon close
>>> >> inspection, the notion of a general ideology in p2p itself is a
>>> nonsensical
>>> >> concept.  P2P is a phenomenon / process.  Participants may have
>>> diverse
>>> >> ideologies (e.g. profit-only vs freedom-only), but as long as they
>>> agree on
>>> >> the basic principles of production, that doesn't impact the process.
>>> >> Ideological differences can and do impact organizations participating
>>> in p2p
>>> >> production, and that has come up regularly (e.g. Wikipedia).
>>> >>
>>> >> -------
>>> >>
>>> >> I don't have much of an argument, but I wanted to invite others to
>>> discuss
>>> >> (particularly to invite Athina to rebut, and Kevin to expand on his
>>> close
>>> >> inspection).
>>> >>
>>> >> I agree with Kevin that there is no "general ideology in p2p itself",
>>> but
>>> >> the notion of "p2p itself" brackets the historical context.  Employing
>>> p2p's
>>> >> "basic principles of production" in 2009 has potentially huge
>>> political and
>>> >> social implications.  Those of us who work to advance "p2p
>>> alternatives" do
>>> >> so because p2p processes (maybe not in every case, but when considered
>>> >> together) privilege certain outcomes that we prefer.  Our preferences
>>> need
>>> >> to be examined.
>>> >>
>>> >> Best,
>>> >> Matt
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Matt Cooperrider, Consultant
>>> >> SITE: http://mattcoop.com
>>> >> SITE: http://collabforge.com
>>> >> TWITTER: @mattcoop
>>> >> PHONE: 774.487.8152
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > --
>>> > Sam Rose
>>> > Social Synergy
>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.com
>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>> > http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>> > http://localfoodsystems.org
>>> > http://notanemployee.net
>>> > http://communitywiki.org
>>> >
>>> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>> > ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Sam Rose
>>> Social Synergy
>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>> skype: samuelrose
>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>> http://notanemployee.net
>>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>
>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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