[p2p-research] Metacurrency

Samuel Rose samuel.rose at gmail.com
Fri Oct 16 06:50:00 CEST 2009 

I'd be inclined to see how metacurrency folk reply, because then i
could potentially just skip the debate and blog about what they are
doing/potentials/possibilities of metacurrency if it turns out that I
was wrong

Otherwise, sure, I can blog about this in a measured way (I don't want
to slam metacurrency of course).



On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:30 AM, Michel Bauwens
<michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Sam,
>
> I would like to cover this debate and exchange in our p2p blog ..
>
> could you formulate your critique in a blog-ready way, and then I can
> publish the response of the flowspace/metacurrency people ...
>
> I may be wrong, but since Gerry seems to indicate a total willingness to go
> in that direction, could it be simply an issue of documentation?
>
> I may be mistaken but I don't see any intent of conscious enclosure/capture
> of that new system they are working on?
>
> People who are given all their time volunteering on such efforts, may
> usually not have to time to formalise their work in a systematic way for
> others, yes in this case, it is an absolute necessity, so how can we bring
> this forward?
>
> Michel
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Arthur, Gerry,
>>
>>
>> I have actually downloaded the flowplace release and tried to
>> familiarize myself with it
>>
>> My criticism was not that you don't follow a bittorrent model per se.
>> My messages about this originated with me proposing on p2presearch
>> list that myself and others might create a draft of an open standard
>> for a distributed digital currency.  People immediately replied and
>> suggested that I look at flowplace and metacurrency.org. I did take a
>> look at both, and I think your concepts are sound, and I support the
>> direction you are going with your software. But the thing that I guess
>> was "missing" for me was an actual open standard for distributed
>> digital currency. And/or a recipe for combining open standards that is
>> easily replicable.
>>
>> My criticism could be wrong. It could be that you actually *do* have
>> this, and that I somehow missed it.
>>
>> If you don't, it doesn't really diminish the value of either
>> flowplace, nor the metacurrency.org vision. Yet, it still leaves me at
>> square one with what I am interested in doing, which is more along the
>> lines of something like http://opencoin.org/front-page than in
>> creating a suite of tools for managing alternative currency. I may
>> very well just go ahead and work with opencoin, and extend it, since
>> it is closest to what I am thinking about
>>
>> The reason *why* I'm interested in open coin is that I am looking for
>> something that I can adapt to existing web applications, sites, online
>> communities, etc. Something that is more agnostic to the platform that
>> you are using.
>>
>> I could not see a similar portable metadata protocol in
>> flowplace/metacurrency. Please do correct me if I am off track here.
>> Hopefully this helps to clear up what I've been communicating in these
>> various channels in response to people suggesting that I connect with
>> metacurrency project
>>
>> All of that being said I definitely applaud and support metacurrency
>> project, and it's goals, etc.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Gerry Gleason <gerryg at inbox.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > That's what I get for not responding to Sam's reply sooner.  I had only
>> > skimmed it initially and had not noticed that you had forwarded it to a
>> > list.  It's good that someone forwarded it to Arthur as well.
>> >
>> > I guess there must be a basic communication issue still not resolved,
>> > because the way I see it, the metacurrency protocol is designed to
>> > address
>> > precisely the types of situation that he describes and more.  As Art
>> > says
>> > there are things we need to do for this to work on all the levels it
>> > needs
>> > to work on, the protocol design has to support all of this working on
>> > many
>> > languages and platform, but none of that precludes people and groups
>> > from
>> > deploying simple protocols that are "compatible".  Take a look at Geoff
>> > Cheshire's work on http://regenerosity.com, while it doesn't look to the
>> > most recent MCP work, Geoff has been working on this software for years
>> > now
>> > and could not wait for a protocol to emerge before starting work.  I'm
>> > sure
>> > Sam has done the same, and I hope he will keep looking at what we
>> > produce
>> > under the Meta-Currency banner to see what we have to offer one another,
>> > my
>> > sense it that there are great synergies here and possibility to be
>> > expressed
>> > in collaborations.
>> >
>> > I am happy to work towards alignment on shared intentions, please let me
>> > know how I can help with this. The whole point of this work with
>> > currencies
>> > is to acknowledge the wealth we create together, and central to that is
>> > the
>> > value we see in each others work that leads us to deeper collaborations.
>> >  We
>> > know instinctively that the wealth creation power of making more of
>> > that,
>> > more collaborative work built on deepening personal relationships of
>> > trust
>> > and care is ultimately explosive, but not in a destructive way.  Not a
>> > bubble economy that always  pops leaving us worse off, but a container
>> > that
>> > expands in its living capacities and diversities to fill the available
>> > spaces and flows with life.
>> >
>> > Gerry
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/14/09 11:42 PM, Arthur Brock wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dante,
>> >> I'll readily accept the criticism that metacurrency seems to
>> >> complicated.
>> >> Anybody trying to make sense of what we're doing while coming from a
>> >> money
>> >> as currency perspective could think we're jumping through way too many
>> >> hoops.
>> >> However, we are jumping through those very hoops because we are making
>> >> currency so much more flexible than money so that it can be bits,
>> >> hours, or
>> >> grams, or ratings, or certifications, or
>> >> strikes/balls/runs/innings/games or
>> >> whatever.  The medium and type of activity totally dictates the
>> >> currency.
>> >>  That's exactly why were doing something so "complicated."
>> >> I believe our biggest failure is that Sam has tried looking into the
>> >> metacurrency and was left thinking it didn't meet the bit torrent
>> >> example
>> >> and was just complicated.
>> >> We're actually keeping the larger philosophical conversations about
>> >> "currency" away from the metacurrency web site because we don't want
>> >> people
>> >> to get bogged down in a lot of theoretical discussion rather than
>> >> jumping in
>> >> to help build tools. For more of the actual philosophy and approach
>> >> behind
>> >> metacurrency, Sam should explore http://NewCurrencyFrontiers.com and
>> >> http://blog.NewCurrencyFrontiers.com.
>> >> Thanks for sending this by me. :)
>> >> -art
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> *From:* Dante-Gabryell Monson [mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com]
>> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:18 AM
>> >> *To:* Bernard Lietaer; artbrock at geekgene.com
>> >> *Cc:* opencc at googlegroups.com
>> >> *Subject:* Fwd: [p2p-research] Metacurrency
>> >>
>> >> fyi ... message forwarded below,  from Sam Rose on the p2pr list
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> excerpt :
>> >>
>> >> << I also see something missing from metacurrency.org
>> >> <http://metacurrency.org>, and that is that
>> >> "currency" can depend on the ecology/medium. This is different than
>> >> traditional currency, and allows "money" to be tied to what is being
>> >> exchanged within the system.
>> >>
>> >> I talked with Paul Hartzog in Ann Arbor about something similar
>> >> recently:
>> >>
>> >> The idea that the medium of activity dictates the "currency". >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Forwarded conversation
>> >> Subject: *[p2p-research] Metacurrency*
>> >> ------------------------
>> >>
>> >> From: *Samuel Rose* <samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> >> <mailto:samuel.rose at gmail.com>>
>> >> Date: Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 2:59 PM
>> >> To: Gerry Gleason <gerryg at inbox.com <mailto:gerryg at inbox.com>>
>> >> Cc: Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> >> <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gerry, I am interested in the metacurrency event. My own interest lies
>> >> in creating a set of simple open standards around alternative
>> >> currencies. My interest is that these simple standards be adoptable
>> >> across many different web applications.
>> >>
>> >> Everyone keeps pointing me to the metacurrency project, and I keep
>> >> repeating that metacurrency project does not have any published simple
>> >> standard that I can adopt. They do have examples, but they are not
>> >> complete, and do not constitute a replicable body of work. Plus, in my
>> >> opinion, metacurrency approach is overly complicated.
>> >>
>> >> I also see something missing from metacurrency.org
>> >> <http://metacurrency.org>, and that is that
>> >> "currency" can depend on the ecology/medium. This is different than
>> >> traditional currency, and allows "money" to be tied to what is being
>> >> exchanged within the system.
>> >>
>> >> I talked with Paul Hartzog in Ann Arbor about something similar
>> >> recently:
>> >>
>> >> The idea that the medium of activity dictates the "currency". Paul
>> >> uses the example of bittorrent: For users of bittorrent, the currency
>> >> of exchange is literally the "bit". You have to upload to download,
>> >> and you can upload more now, which will let you download more later
>> >> (thus creating a surplus within the whole system). These types of
>> >> exchanges are not "market" exchanges, like buying and selling. They
>> >> are commons-based exchanges, where participants have feedback about
>> >> how they are taking from and contributing to the common-pool resource
>> >> of bandwidth in the bittorrent system... Read More
>> >>
>> >> There are also similar commons-based webs of exchanges between people
>> >> and natural systems that can follow a "code", and the "code" need not
>> >> be like a script on a computer.
>> >>
>> >> Instead it can be more like an agent based model, where you follow
>> >> simple rules about how you act within a system. Achievement of
>> >> creating a balance between yourself and the system will usually
>> >> consist of what you take from system, and what you put back in.
>> >>
>> >> The argument that Paul and I make is that you can also look at your
>> >> yourself as a fractal micro-cosm of the larger system you are a part
>> >> of. You can look at where you are getting inputs from, and where your
>> >> outputs go to. What you take in can be from the "waste" of someone
>> >> else ("waste equals food"), what you output could be the basis of raw
>> >> ... Read Morematerial for other's "input". These are the simple rules,
>> >> the "code" for what I call a "wealth generating ecology" (wealth =
>> >> other kinds of wealth beyond just money) a system that can generate
>> >> surplus consistently even for one person, and can exponentially
>> >> generate surplus as more people enter the system. The catch is that
>> >> most of the resources end up being voluntarily or systematically
>> >> co-managed as a "commons": a resource that everyone who uses
>> >> recognizes as something that no one user fully owns, and so must be
>> >> co-governed somehow by users. (resource is not just physical object,
>> >> can be the combined time and attention of people, etc)
>> >>
>> >> (Gerry: copied this to p2p research list, I feel that people there
>> >> would be interested in this exchange. I clipped off your personal
>> >> notes to me)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> --
>> >> Sam Rose
>> >> Social Synergy
>> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> >> skype: samuelrose
>> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com <mailto:samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>> >> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>> >> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>> >> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> >> http://localfoodsystems.org
>> >> http://notanemployee.net
>> >> http://communitywiki.org
>> >>
>> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>
>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>> >>
>> >> ----------
>> >> From: *Nathan Cravens* <knuggy at gmail.com <mailto:knuggy at gmail.com>>
>> >> Date: Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:34 AM
>> >> To: Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com <mailto:samuel.rose at gmail.com>>
>> >> Cc: Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> >> <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi Sam,
>> >>
>> >> This is excellent:
>> >> You are describing how to manage a free use commons once a financial
>> >> commons is no longer required?
>> >>
>> >> A financial commons is introduced when a society clearly cannot care
>> >> for
>> >> themselves based on a work requirement to participate in a market
>> >> previously
>> >> generated by financial capital. Japan most severely needs to adopt this
>> >> approach to prevent further the exclusionary tactics such as racial and
>> >> national superiority. I look forward to working with Dante and his
>> >> Japanese
>> >> friend in addressing Japan's issues, as they seem to need the
>> >> approaches
>> >> Paul Fernhout and I describe more than any other industrialized nation
>> >> at
>> >> the moment.
>> >>
>> >> Will you write a detailed description with Paul Hartzog of this
>> >> monetary/materials system for the p2p blog? We can then discuss it in
>> >> more
>> >> detail in November. What you describe to me sounds more like a
>> >> "sub-currency" than "meta," but that may just be an issue of semantics.
>> >> I
>> >> view what you describe as a way to preserve a free use commons from
>> >> reverting to a financial commons, or worse, financial capital.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Nathan
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>
>> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------
>> >> From: *Samuel Rose* <samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> >> <mailto:samuel.rose at gmail.com>>
>> >> Date: Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 1:15 AM
>> >> To: Nathan Cravens <knuggy at gmail.com <mailto:knuggy at gmail.com>>
>> >> Cc: Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> >> <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This model is applicable now. Over time, you may reach a point where a
>> >> financial commons is no longer required. In some parts of human
>> >> problem solving,  a financial commons is not required even now.
>> >> There are more issues than just economic/financial in relation to
>> >> commons. First and foremost, commons must be recognized as such by
>> >> humans who are connected with it. If people cannot recognize a
>> >> resource as a commons, then they will tend to manage it in a way that
>> >> is different from those methods of commons governance recognized by
>> >> Elinor Ostrum and others doing similar work.
>> >>
>> >> People may simply lack the literacy of what a commons is, or may be
>> >> operating with a worldview that is opposed to participating in the
>> >> management of resources in commons-based ways. or, in some cases (like
>> >> land for instance) there is a legal enforcement that prevents it from
>> >> being recognized as a commons
>> >>
>> >> Land may be one of the last resources to widely transition away from
>> >> being widely enclosed.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I think the starting place, the place to begin (to transition towards
>> >> tranformation) is where we are at now. Marshall McLuhan knew this:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Persons grouped around a fire or candle for warmth or light are less
>> >> able to pursue independent thoughts, or even tasks, than people
>> >> supplied with electric light. In the same way, the social and
>> >> educational patterns latent in automation are those of self-employment
>> >> and artistic autonomy. "
>> >>
>> >> If we can help people (anywhere in the world) meet basic survival
>> >> needs in commons and P2P ways, then we can create a pathway for more
>> >> advanced evolution.
>> >> --
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Social Synergy
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>> http://notanemployee.net
>> http://communitywiki.org
>>
>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> p2presearch mailing list
>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.com
http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
http://socialmediaclassroom.com
http://localfoodsystems.org
http://notanemployee.net
http://communitywiki.org

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan

More information about the p2presearch mailing list