[p2p-research] Metacurrency

Fri Oct 16 06:30:12 CEST 2009

Hi Sam,

I would like to cover this debate and exchange in our p2p blog ..

could you formulate your critique in a blog-ready way, and then I can
publish the response of the flowspace/metacurrency people ...

I may be wrong, but since Gerry seems to indicate a total willingness to go
in that direction, could it be simply an issue of documentation?

I may be mistaken but I don't see any intent of conscious enclosure/capture
of that new system they are working on?

People who are given all their time volunteering on such efforts, may
usually not have to time to formalise their work in a systematic way for
others, yes in this case, it is an absolute necessity, so how can we bring
this forward?

Michel

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Arthur, Gerry,
>
>
> I have actually downloaded the flowplace release and tried to
> familiarize myself with it
>
> My criticism was not that you don't follow a bittorrent model per se.
> My messages about this originated with me proposing on p2presearch
> list that myself and others might create a draft of an open standard
> for a distributed digital currency.  People immediately replied and
> suggested that I look at flowplace and metacurrency.org. I did take a
> look at both, and I think your concepts are sound, and I support the
> direction you are going with your software. But the thing that I guess
> was "missing" for me was an actual open standard for distributed
> digital currency. And/or a recipe for combining open standards that is
> easily replicable.
>
> My criticism could be wrong. It could be that you actually *do* have
> this, and that I somehow missed it.
>
> If you don't, it doesn't really diminish the value of either
> flowplace, nor the metacurrency.org vision. Yet, it still leaves me at
> square one with what I am interested in doing, which is more along the
> lines of something like http://opencoin.org/front-page than in
> creating a suite of tools for managing alternative currency. I may
> very well just go ahead and work with opencoin, and extend it, since
> it is closest to what I am thinking about
>
> The reason *why* I'm interested in open coin is that I am looking for
> something that I can adapt to existing web applications, sites, online
> communities, etc. Something that is more agnostic to the platform that
> you are using.
>
> I could not see a similar portable metadata protocol in
> flowplace/metacurrency. Please do correct me if I am off track here.
> Hopefully this helps to clear up what I've been communicating in these
> various channels in response to people suggesting that I connect with
> metacurrency project
>
> All of that being said I definitely applaud and support metacurrency
> project, and it's goals, etc.
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Gerry Gleason <gerryg at inbox.com> wrote:
> >
> > That's what I get for not responding to Sam's reply sooner.  I had only
> > skimmed it initially and had not noticed that you had forwarded it to a
> > list.  It's good that someone forwarded it to Arthur as well.
> >
> > I guess there must be a basic communication issue still not resolved,
> > because the way I see it, the metacurrency protocol is designed to
> address
> > precisely the types of situation that he describes and more.  As Art says
> > there are things we need to do for this to work on all the levels it
> needs
> > to work on, the protocol design has to support all of this working on
> many
> > languages and platform, but none of that precludes people and groups from
> > deploying simple protocols that are "compatible".  Take a look at Geoff
> > Cheshire's work on http://regenerosity.com, while it doesn't look to the
> > most recent MCP work, Geoff has been working on this software for years
> now
> > and could not wait for a protocol to emerge before starting work.  I'm
> sure
> > Sam has done the same, and I hope he will keep looking at what we produce
> > under the Meta-Currency banner to see what we have to offer one another,
> my
> > sense it that there are great synergies here and possibility to be
> expressed
> > in collaborations.
> >
> > I am happy to work towards alignment on shared intentions, please let me
> > know how I can help with this. The whole point of this work with
> currencies
> > is to acknowledge the wealth we create together, and central to that is
> the
> > value we see in each others work that leads us to deeper collaborations.
>  We
> > know instinctively that the wealth creation power of making more of that,
> > more collaborative work built on deepening personal relationships of
> trust
> > and care is ultimately explosive, but not in a destructive way.  Not a
> > bubble economy that always  pops leaving us worse off, but a container
> that
> > expands in its living capacities and diversities to fill the available
> > spaces and flows with life.
> >
> > Gerry
> >
> >
> > On 10/14/09 11:42 PM, Arthur Brock wrote:
> >>
> >> Dante,
> >> I'll readily accept the criticism that metacurrency seems to
> complicated.
> >> Anybody trying to make sense of what we're doing while coming from a
> money
> >> as currency perspective could think we're jumping through way too many
> >> hoops.
> >> However, we are jumping through those very hoops because we are making
> >> currency so much more flexible than money so that it can be bits, hours,
> or
> >> grams, or ratings, or certifications, or
> strikes/balls/runs/innings/games or
> >> whatever.  The medium and type of activity totally dictates the
> currency.
> >>  That's exactly why were doing something so "complicated."
> >> I believe our biggest failure is that Sam has tried looking into the
> >> metacurrency and was left thinking it didn't meet the bit torrent
> example
> >> and was just complicated.
> >> We're actually keeping the larger philosophical conversations about
> >> "currency" away from the metacurrency web site because we don't want
> people
> >> to get bogged down in a lot of theoretical discussion rather than
> jumping in
> >> to help build tools. For more of the actual philosophy and approach
> behind
> >> metacurrency, Sam should explore http://NewCurrencyFrontiers.com and
> >> http://blog.NewCurrencyFrontiers.com.
> >> Thanks for sending this by me. :)
> >> -art
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> *From:* Dante-Gabryell Monson [mailto:dante.monson at gmail.com]
> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:18 AM
> >> *To:* Bernard Lietaer; artbrock at geekgene.com
> >> *Cc:* opencc at googlegroups.com
> >> *Subject:* Fwd: [p2p-research] Metacurrency
> >>
> >> fyi ... message forwarded below,  from Sam Rose on the p2pr list
> >>
> >>
> >> excerpt :
> >>
> >> << I also see something missing from metacurrency.org
> >> <http://metacurrency.org>, and that is that
> >> "currency" can depend on the ecology/medium. This is different than
> >> traditional currency, and allows "money" to be tied to what is being
> >> exchanged within the system.
> >>
> >> I talked with Paul Hartzog in Ann Arbor about something similar
> recently:
> >>
> >> The idea that the medium of activity dictates the "currency". >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Forwarded conversation
> >> Subject: *[p2p-research] Metacurrency*
> >> ------------------------
> >>
> >> From: *Samuel Rose* <samuel.rose at gmail.com <mailto:
> samuel.rose at gmail.com>>
> >> Date: Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 2:59 PM
> >> To: Gerry Gleason <gerryg at inbox.com <mailto:gerryg at inbox.com>>
> >> Cc: Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Gerry, I am interested in the metacurrency event. My own interest lies
> >> in creating a set of simple open standards around alternative
> >> currencies. My interest is that these simple standards be adoptable
> >> across many different web applications.
> >>
> >> Everyone keeps pointing me to the metacurrency project, and I keep
> >> repeating that metacurrency project does not have any published simple
> >> standard that I can adopt. They do have examples, but they are not
> >> complete, and do not constitute a replicable body of work. Plus, in my
> >> opinion, metacurrency approach is overly complicated.
> >>
> >> I also see something missing from metacurrency.org
> >> <http://metacurrency.org>, and that is that
> >> "currency" can depend on the ecology/medium. This is different than
> >> traditional currency, and allows "money" to be tied to what is being
> >> exchanged within the system.
> >>
> >> I talked with Paul Hartzog in Ann Arbor about something similar
> recently:
> >>
> >> The idea that the medium of activity dictates the "currency". Paul
> >> uses the example of bittorrent: For users of bittorrent, the currency
> >> of exchange is literally the "bit". You have to upload to download,
> >> and you can upload more now, which will let you download more later
> >> (thus creating a surplus within the whole system). These types of
> >> exchanges are not "market" exchanges, like buying and selling. They
> >> are commons-based exchanges, where participants have feedback about
> >> how they are taking from and contributing to the common-pool resource
> >> of bandwidth in the bittorrent system... Read More
> >>
> >> There are also similar commons-based webs of exchanges between people
> >> and natural systems that can follow a "code", and the "code" need not
> >> be like a script on a computer.
> >>
> >> Instead it can be more like an agent based model, where you follow
> >> simple rules about how you act within a system. Achievement of
> >> creating a balance between yourself and the system will usually
> >> consist of what you take from system, and what you put back in.
> >>
> >> The argument that Paul and I make is that you can also look at your
> >> yourself as a fractal micro-cosm of the larger system you are a part
> >> of. You can look at where you are getting inputs from, and where your
> >> outputs go to. What you take in can be from the "waste" of someone
> >> else ("waste equals food"), what you output could be the basis of raw
> >> ... Read Morematerial for other's "input". These are the simple rules,
> >> the "code" for what I call a "wealth generating ecology" (wealth =
> >> other kinds of wealth beyond just money) a system that can generate
> >> surplus consistently even for one person, and can exponentially
> >> generate surplus as more people enter the system. The catch is that
> >> most of the resources end up being voluntarily or systematically
> >> co-managed as a "commons": a resource that everyone who uses
> >> recognizes as something that no one user fully owns, and so must be
> >> co-governed somehow by users. (resource is not just physical object,
> >> can be the combined time and attention of people, etc)
> >>
> >> (Gerry: copied this to p2p research list, I feel that people there
> >> would be interested in this exchange. I clipped off your personal
> >> notes to me)
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> --
> >> Sam Rose
> >> Social Synergy
> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> >> skype: samuelrose
> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com <mailto:samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> >> http://socialsynergyweb.com
> >> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> >> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> >> http://localfoodsystems.org
> >> http://notanemployee.net
> >> http://communitywiki.org
> >>
> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>
> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>
> >> ----------
> >> From: *Nathan Cravens* <knuggy at gmail.com <mailto:knuggy at gmail.com>>
> >> Date: Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:34 AM
> >> To: Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com <mailto:samuel.rose at gmail.com>>
> >> Cc: Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Sam,
> >>
> >> This is excellent:
> >> You are describing how to manage a free use commons once a financial
> >> commons is no longer required?
> >>
> >> A financial commons is introduced when a society clearly cannot care for
> >> themselves based on a work requirement to participate in a market
> previously
> >> generated by financial capital. Japan most severely needs to adopt this
> >> approach to prevent further the exclusionary tactics such as racial and
> >> national superiority. I look forward to working with Dante and his
> Japanese
> >> friend in addressing Japan's issues, as they seem to need the approaches
> >> Paul Fernhout and I describe more than any other industrialized nation
> at
> >> the moment.
> >>
> >> Will you write a detailed description with Paul Hartzog of this
> >> monetary/materials system for the p2p blog? We can then discuss it in
> more
> >> detail in November. What you describe to me sounds more like a
> >> "sub-currency" than "meta," but that may just be an issue of semantics.
> I
> >> view what you describe as a way to preserve a free use commons from
> >> reverting to a financial commons, or worse, financial capital.
> >>
> >>
> >> Nathan
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> p2presearch mailing list
> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>
> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------
> >> From: *Samuel Rose* <samuel.rose at gmail.com <mailto:
> samuel.rose at gmail.com>>
> >> Date: Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 1:15 AM
> >> To: Nathan Cravens <knuggy at gmail.com <mailto:knuggy at gmail.com>>
> >> Cc: Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org
> >> <mailto:p2presearch at listcultures.org>>
> >>
> >>
> >> This model is applicable now. Over time, you may reach a point where a
> >> financial commons is no longer required. In some parts of human
> >> problem solving,  a financial commons is not required even now.
> >> There are more issues than just economic/financial in relation to
> >> commons. First and foremost, commons must be recognized as such by
> >> humans who are connected with it. If people cannot recognize a
> >> resource as a commons, then they will tend to manage it in a way that
> >> is different from those methods of commons governance recognized by
> >> Elinor Ostrum and others doing similar work.
> >>
> >> People may simply lack the literacy of what a commons is, or may be
> >> operating with a worldview that is opposed to participating in the
> >> management of resources in commons-based ways. or, in some cases (like
> >> land for instance) there is a legal enforcement that prevents it from
> >> being recognized as a commons
> >>
> >> Land may be one of the last resources to widely transition away from
> >> being widely enclosed.
> >>
> >>
> >> I think the starting place, the place to begin (to transition towards
> >> tranformation) is where we are at now. Marshall McLuhan knew this:
> >>
> >>
> >> "Persons grouped around a fire or candle for warmth or light are less
> >> able to pursue independent thoughts, or even tasks, than people
> >> supplied with electric light. In the same way, the social and
> >> educational patterns latent in automation are those of self-employment
> >> and artistic autonomy. "
> >>
> >> If we can help people (anywhere in the world) meet basic survival
> >> needs in commons and P2P ways, then we can create a pathway for more
> >> advanced evolution.
> >> --
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> http://localfoodsystems.org
> http://notanemployee.net
> http://communitywiki.org
>
> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>

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