[p2p-research] Fwd: VW's open and transparent Factory in dresden - Germany

Samuel Rose samuel.rose at gmail.com
Mon Oct 12 23:15:27 CEST 2009 

Yes, I can see how that could have come across to you as "you" :-)
Sorry about that


The important parts I was trying to interject were:

I think that "spectrum" could be intepreted by some people as meaning
"from one extreme to another". A finite range, with linear progression
from one end to another. And so, the inevitble question becomes "where
you you on this spectrum?"

What if I get payed to produce things that people do not pay for?
Where do I fit on this spectrum? Where on the spectrum is the model of
convincing people who rely on enclosed resources to invest in creating
common pool resources that they participate in co-managing and using?
This is a picture of what I do.

I want to advocate that there are more possibilities than may be
apparent if you view the picture through a "spectrum" of
possibilities. The actual nature of the system is non-linear, and so
it is not easy to see it through a linear lens.

It is less like this:

extreme < -----------> extreme

more like this:

http://z.about.com/d/spreadsheets/1/0/G/2/-/-/scatter_plot.gif


Other point:


What people are doing is important. Why people are doing what they are
doing is even more important. Understand why people are doing what
they are doing, and you can start to see through their worldview a
little. And, it means you can see how they see the ecologies and
economies they perceive that they are participating in.



On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
<dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Sam !
> ah! I guess I fell into it and read it in a personal way when reading "you"
> in the sentences you used to reply to some of the sentences I used. :-)
> Indeed, instead I could have read it with the interpretation "one" ... :-)
> I guess its easy to get caught into my own perspective :-p
> hope "you" are all fine , you and you and all of our one's  :-)
> Dante
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, my reply was not about you at all. 100% definitely was not
>> about you. But, was 100% about the model of spectrums that you were
>> proposing that we use.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
>> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hi Sam,
>> > yes, and yes :-)
>> > although initially I did not mean it to be a debate on my own
>> > motivations
>> > and situation ,
>> > but simply some comments encouraging to visualize and position ourselves
>> > along such inter-related spectrum's,
>> > as I notice that there may be differences in vision we ( some people on
>> > this
>> > list ) may be building on according to these various spectrum's.
>> > For example, Paul or Nathan mentioning increased automation, in certain
>> > contexts, ...
>> > And yes, I imagine we can also use such spectrum's to position not only
>> > our
>> > visions, but our current situations :-)
>> > I wanted to use such spectrum's not to limit ourselves into a linear
>> > form,
>> > but to use various linear forms to position them on a multi-dimensional
>> > map/graph of such gradual spectrum's, and also understand the non-linear
>> > relations between these spectrum's ...
>> > So I believe it can resonate with what you seem to express in your last
>> > reply Sam :-)
>> > As for replying in relation to me, here goes ( for anyone interested in
>> > knowing a bit more about Dante :-p  )  :
>> > ---
>> > I also believe that there is no lack of "work".
>> > It all depends how one defines "work".
>> > When I was younger, at school, I asked myself why "the news" was
>> > constantly
>> > worried about "lack of work" when I saw so many things that needed to be
>> > done.  So I understood their concern was about "paid work".  On the
>> > other
>> > hand, I could see that there was so much money in the social background
>> > in
>> > which I grew in. ( not my parents, but the parents of the kids I went to
>> > school with ). I understood it was an issue of decision making and
>> > power.
>> > Today, I understand its about artificial scarcity through , for example,
>> > money hoarding; a need for constantly growing the monetary mass through
>> > debt
>> > as to pay for formerly created debt ( principal ) plus the interest ,
>> > through creating new markets, as to avoid collapse , requiring growth,
>> > including speculative growth ( bubbles ), but only if it leads to
>> > increased
>> > profits and power for the ones that already have power and money.  An
>> > economic system at the service of the status quo of the structures of
>> > power.
>> > And so my own question becomes :
>> > When power structures who have access to monetary creation ( through
>> > debt )
>> > will have their needs satisfied without needing to pay a majority of the
>> > population , how can the ones outside of the needs of a monetary system
>> > servicing the power structures best reclaim inter-dependence
>> > ---
>> > As for "paid work", yes, its a lot about "effective communication",
>> > "selling" our work to individuals or organizations that have access to
>> > resources ( including, as you say, non monetary resources ) ,
>> > organizations
>> > of individuals that may see an interest in it.
>> > I guess this is how I was given the laptop computer on which I currently
>> > write.
>> > But I do not see this as a structural solution.
>> > There are various approaches...
>> > I believe in support at the level of peers...
>> > I want to participate in the development of a radical solution, by
>> > trying to
>> > envision and implement a software supporting human based computation
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-based_computation
>> > Although I am not a programmer, I am thinking about this kind of
>> > solution (
>> > draft ) :
>> > http://cashwiki.org/en/DebttoIntention
>> > As for me, my motivation , and my living strategy, after spending
>> > several
>> > years of roaming around by hitch hiking,
>> > is to re-converge locally, building up social networks and capital
>> > locally,
>> > continue learning and connecting people interested in collaborating
>> > locally,
>> > increasing autonomy through distributed inter-dependence,
>> > and inspiring myself from what you are doing.
>> > As I re-establish myself locally, I have more stability to find out
>> > about
>> > funding opportunities, and potentially create local partnerships to fund
>> > raise.  This mailing list and all the converging work and inspirations
>> > from
>> > the people on this list can empower me in setting up a clear vision for
>> > implementations at various levels of abstraction :-)
>> > Greetings from Brussels :-)
>> > Dante
>> > http://hitchwiki.org/en/Dante
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dante, I like your style, but I have a few counterpoints to some of
>> >> this.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
>> >> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > I agree.  There are a number of important differentiations.
>> >> > Or rather, I d like to see it as a number of "spectrum's" which
>> >> > ideally
>> >> > could be visualized in a multidimensional graph :-)
>> >> > See below in bold for a few spectrum's I notice in our conversation,
>> >> > and feel free to suggest added related spectrum's...
>> >> > Perhaps we could use it to make graphical representations and situate
>> >> > ourselves ?
>> >> > ----
>> >> >
>> >> > The first one you reacted to is paid work vs unpaid work.
>> >> > ( or perhaps also "pay to work" ? )
>> >> > "What is work" ? What is "paid work" ?
>> >> > What is "paid work" in the current dominant monetary paradigm ?
>> >> > And how is "work" recognized in potential other economic systems ?
>> >> > ( does it still need to be recognized ? will we pay to have our work
>> >> > recognized ? such as students in universities ? - unless they are
>> >> > paid
>> >> > for
>> >> > working on their Phd -  )
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I think these are good questions. I'd also like to add: *Why* are you
>> >> doing this work? Are you doing it for the pay?
>> >>
>> >> What people are doing is important. Why they are doing what they are
>> >> doing is vital to understanding the system they see themselves as
>> >> being part of.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > If power structures do not need workers anymore, I imagine it is
>> >> > unlikely a
>> >> > majority of the population would get paid for working for what
>> >> > machines
>> >> > could make cheaper, faster, and without questioning authority.
>> >>
>> >> If machines do the work that we do now, we'll  turn our attentions to
>> >> new types of work (maybe figuring out how to turn all of mass around
>> >> us into computers and digital storage). Or, a dystopian outcome is:
>> >> freed up from the need to labor for survival, we turn on each
>> >> other....
>> >>
>> >> > Perhaps people would get paid for not revolting themselves against
>> >> > the
>> >> > status quo of power structures ?  Or perhaps it is cheaper to pay
>> >> > police
>> >> > and
>> >> > army forces to control parts of the population that are not required
>> >> > to
>> >> > service the dominant control/monetary system ?
>> >>
>> >> At least here in the US, there is enough work for at least 40 years
>> >> just re-making the education system :-) Wait until experience some
>> >> more collapses of globalized infrastructure. There's enough work for
>> >> every human on the planet in recreating our artificially globalized
>> >> infrastructure into networks of local systems
>> >>
>> >> > Or perhaps its even "cheaper" ( in terms of coercive control ) to
>> >> > eradicate
>> >> > such populations that would become to create their own systems and
>> >> > become
>> >> > too autonomous ?
>> >> > If we tend towards such a situation, I find it interesting to
>> >> > understand
>> >> > how
>> >> > to create an alternative economy where it is possible to produce for
>> >> > ourselves, preferably by using existing technologies.
>> >> > I already feel I am in such a situation : I do not seem to be
>> >> > servicing
>> >> > direct needs of the status quo of power structures, so as a result I
>> >> > am
>> >> > not
>> >> > paid for trying to change it.
>> >>
>> >> My approach is to convince them to try something really, really
>> >> different, and get them to fund that. It's up to you how you ask to be
>> >> funded. You can ask for money, or you could ask for them to give you a
>> >> piece of land, and enough materials to build a structure on it. etc
>> >> etc
>> >>
>> >> I think that "spectrum" could be intepreted by some people as meaning
>> >> "from one extreme to another". A finite range, with linear progression
>> >> from one end to another. And so, the inevitble question becomes "where
>> >> you you on this spectrum?"
>> >>
>> >> What if I get payed to produce things that people do not pay for?
>> >> Where do I fit on this spectrum? Where on the spectrum is the model of
>> >> convincing people who rely on enclosed resources to invest in creating
>> >> common pool resources that they participate in co-managing and using?
>> >> This is a picture of what I do.
>> >>
>> >> I want to advocate that there are more possibilities than may be
>> >> apparent if you view the picture through a "spectrum" of
>> >> possibilities. The actual nature of the system is non-linear, and so
>> >> it is not easy to see it through a linear lens.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> --
>> >> Sam Rose
>> >> Social Synergy
>> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> >> skype: samuelrose
>> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> >> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>> >> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>> >> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> >> http://localfoodsystems.org
>> >> http://notanemployee.net
>> >> http://communitywiki.org
>> >>
>> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Social Synergy
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>> http://notanemployee.net
>> http://communitywiki.org
>>
>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>
>



-- 
-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.com
http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
http://socialmediaclassroom.com
http://localfoodsystems.org
http://notanemployee.net
http://communitywiki.org

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan

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