[p2p-research] Fwd: VW's open and transparent Factory in dresden - Germany

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Thanks Sam !

ah! I guess I fell into it and read it in a personal way when reading "you"
in the sentences you used to reply to some of the sentences I used. :-)

Indeed, instead I could have read it with the interpretation "one" ... :-)

I guess its easy to get caught into my own perspective :-p

hope "you" are all fine , you and you and all of our one's  :-)

Dante

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> Actually, my reply was not about you at all. 100% definitely was not
> about you. But, was 100% about the model of spectrums that you were
> proposing that we use.
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Sam,
> > yes, and yes :-)
> > although initially I did not mean it to be a debate on my own motivations
> > and situation ,
> > but simply some comments encouraging to visualize and position ourselves
> > along such inter-related spectrum's,
> > as I notice that there may be differences in vision we ( some people on
> this
> > list ) may be building on according to these various spectrum's.
> > For example, Paul or Nathan mentioning increased automation, in certain
> > contexts, ...
> > And yes, I imagine we can also use such spectrum's to position not only
> our
> > visions, but our current situations :-)
> > I wanted to use such spectrum's not to limit ourselves into a linear
> form,
> > but to use various linear forms to position them on a multi-dimensional
> > map/graph of such gradual spectrum's, and also understand the non-linear
> > relations between these spectrum's ...
> > So I believe it can resonate with what you seem to express in your last
> > reply Sam :-)
> > As for replying in relation to me, here goes ( for anyone interested in
> > knowing a bit more about Dante :-p  )  :
> > ---
> > I also believe that there is no lack of "work".
> > It all depends how one defines "work".
> > When I was younger, at school, I asked myself why "the news" was
> constantly
> > worried about "lack of work" when I saw so many things that needed to be
> > done.  So I understood their concern was about "paid work".  On the other
> > hand, I could see that there was so much money in the social background
> in
> > which I grew in. ( not my parents, but the parents of the kids I went to
> > school with ). I understood it was an issue of decision making and power.
> > Today, I understand its about artificial scarcity through , for example,
> > money hoarding; a need for constantly growing the monetary mass through
> debt
> > as to pay for formerly created debt ( principal ) plus the interest ,
> > through creating new markets, as to avoid collapse , requiring growth,
> > including speculative growth ( bubbles ), but only if it leads to
> increased
> > profits and power for the ones that already have power and money.  An
> > economic system at the service of the status quo of the structures of
> > power.
> > And so my own question becomes :
> > When power structures who have access to monetary creation ( through debt
> )
> > will have their needs satisfied without needing to pay a majority of the
> > population , how can the ones outside of the needs of a monetary system
> > servicing the power structures best reclaim inter-dependence
> > ---
> > As for "paid work", yes, its a lot about "effective communication",
> > "selling" our work to individuals or organizations that have access to
> > resources ( including, as you say, non monetary resources ) ,
> organizations
> > of individuals that may see an interest in it.
> > I guess this is how I was given the laptop computer on which I currently
> > write.
> > But I do not see this as a structural solution.
> > There are various approaches...
> > I believe in support at the level of peers...
> > I want to participate in the development of a radical solution, by trying
> to
> > envision and implement a software supporting human based computation
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-based_computation
> > Although I am not a programmer, I am thinking about this kind of solution
> (
> > draft ) :
> > http://cashwiki.org/en/DebttoIntention
> > As for me, my motivation , and my living strategy, after spending several
> > years of roaming around by hitch hiking,
> > is to re-converge locally, building up social networks and capital
> locally,
> > continue learning and connecting people interested in collaborating
> locally,
> > increasing autonomy through distributed inter-dependence,
> > and inspiring myself from what you are doing.
> > As I re-establish myself locally, I have more stability to find out about
> > funding opportunities, and potentially create local partnerships to fund
> > raise.  This mailing list and all the converging work and inspirations
> from
> > the people on this list can empower me in setting up a clear vision for
> > implementations at various levels of abstraction :-)
> > Greetings from Brussels :-)
> > Dante
> > http://hitchwiki.org/en/Dante
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dante, I like your style, but I have a few counterpoints to some of
> this.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
> >> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > I agree.  There are a number of important differentiations.
> >> > Or rather, I d like to see it as a number of "spectrum's" which
> ideally
> >> > could be visualized in a multidimensional graph :-)
> >> > See below in bold for a few spectrum's I notice in our conversation,
> >> > and feel free to suggest added related spectrum's...
> >> > Perhaps we could use it to make graphical representations and situate
> >> > ourselves ?
> >> > ----
> >> >
> >> > The first one you reacted to is paid work vs unpaid work.
> >> > ( or perhaps also "pay to work" ? )
> >> > "What is work" ? What is "paid work" ?
> >> > What is "paid work" in the current dominant monetary paradigm ?
> >> > And how is "work" recognized in potential other economic systems ?
> >> > ( does it still need to be recognized ? will we pay to have our work
> >> > recognized ? such as students in universities ? - unless they are paid
> >> > for
> >> > working on their Phd -  )
> >>
> >>
> >> I think these are good questions. I'd also like to add: *Why* are you
> >> doing this work? Are you doing it for the pay?
> >>
> >> What people are doing is important. Why they are doing what they are
> >> doing is vital to understanding the system they see themselves as
> >> being part of.
> >>
> >>
> >> > If power structures do not need workers anymore, I imagine it is
> >> > unlikely a
> >> > majority of the population would get paid for working for what
> machines
> >> > could make cheaper, faster, and without questioning authority.
> >>
> >> If machines do the work that we do now, we'll  turn our attentions to
> >> new types of work (maybe figuring out how to turn all of mass around
> >> us into computers and digital storage). Or, a dystopian outcome is:
> >> freed up from the need to labor for survival, we turn on each
> >> other....
> >>
> >> > Perhaps people would get paid for not revolting themselves against the
> >> > status quo of power structures ?  Or perhaps it is cheaper to pay
> police
> >> > and
> >> > army forces to control parts of the population that are not required
> to
> >> > service the dominant control/monetary system ?
> >>
> >> At least here in the US, there is enough work for at least 40 years
> >> just re-making the education system :-) Wait until experience some
> >> more collapses of globalized infrastructure. There's enough work for
> >> every human on the planet in recreating our artificially globalized
> >> infrastructure into networks of local systems
> >>
> >> > Or perhaps its even "cheaper" ( in terms of coercive control ) to
> >> > eradicate
> >> > such populations that would become to create their own systems and
> >> > become
> >> > too autonomous ?
> >> > If we tend towards such a situation, I find it interesting to
> understand
> >> > how
> >> > to create an alternative economy where it is possible to produce for
> >> > ourselves, preferably by using existing technologies.
> >> > I already feel I am in such a situation : I do not seem to be
> servicing
> >> > direct needs of the status quo of power structures, so as a result I
> am
> >> > not
> >> > paid for trying to change it.
> >>
> >> My approach is to convince them to try something really, really
> >> different, and get them to fund that. It's up to you how you ask to be
> >> funded. You can ask for money, or you could ask for them to give you a
> >> piece of land, and enough materials to build a structure on it. etc
> >> etc
> >>
> >> I think that "spectrum" could be intepreted by some people as meaning
> >> "from one extreme to another". A finite range, with linear progression
> >> from one end to another. And so, the inevitble question becomes "where
> >> you you on this spectrum?"
> >>
> >> What if I get payed to produce things that people do not pay for?
> >> Where do I fit on this spectrum? Where on the spectrum is the model of
> >> convincing people who rely on enclosed resources to invest in creating
> >> common pool resources that they participate in co-managing and using?
> >> This is a picture of what I do.
> >>
> >> I want to advocate that there are more possibilities than may be
> >> apparent if you view the picture through a "spectrum" of
> >> possibilities. The actual nature of the system is non-linear, and so
> >> it is not easy to see it through a linear lens.
> >>
> >> --
> >> --
> >> Sam Rose
> >> Social Synergy
> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> >> skype: samuelrose
> >> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> >> http://socialsynergyweb.com
> >> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> >> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> >> http://localfoodsystems.org
> >> http://notanemployee.net
> >> http://communitywiki.org
> >>
> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> http://localfoodsystems.org
> http://notanemployee.net
> http://communitywiki.org
>
> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>
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