[p2p-research] Fwd: VW's open and transparent Factory in dresden - Germany

[Samuel Rose]

Actually, my reply was not about you at all. 100% definitely was not
about you. But, was 100% about the model of spectrums that you were
proposing that we use.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
<dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Sam,
> yes, and yes :-)
> although initially I did not mean it to be a debate on my own motivations
> and situation ,
> but simply some comments encouraging to visualize and position ourselves
> along such inter-related spectrum's,
> as I notice that there may be differences in vision we ( some people on this
> list ) may be building on according to these various spectrum's.
> For example, Paul or Nathan mentioning increased automation, in certain
> contexts, ...
> And yes, I imagine we can also use such spectrum's to position not only our
> visions, but our current situations :-)
> I wanted to use such spectrum's not to limit ourselves into a linear form,
> but to use various linear forms to position them on a multi-dimensional
> map/graph of such gradual spectrum's, and also understand the non-linear
> relations between these spectrum's ...
> So I believe it can resonate with what you seem to express in your last
> reply Sam :-)
> As for replying in relation to me, here goes ( for anyone interested in
> knowing a bit more about Dante :-p  )  :
> ---
> I also believe that there is no lack of "work".
> It all depends how one defines "work".
> When I was younger, at school, I asked myself why "the news" was constantly
> worried about "lack of work" when I saw so many things that needed to be
> done.  So I understood their concern was about "paid work".  On the other
> hand, I could see that there was so much money in the social background in
> which I grew in. ( not my parents, but the parents of the kids I went to
> school with ). I understood it was an issue of decision making and power.
> Today, I understand its about artificial scarcity through , for example,
> money hoarding; a need for constantly growing the monetary mass through debt
> as to pay for formerly created debt ( principal ) plus the interest ,
> through creating new markets, as to avoid collapse , requiring growth,
> including speculative growth ( bubbles ), but only if it leads to increased
> profits and power for the ones that already have power and money.  An
> economic system at the service of the status quo of the structures of
> power.
> And so my own question becomes :
> When power structures who have access to monetary creation ( through debt )
> will have their needs satisfied without needing to pay a majority of the
> population , how can the ones outside of the needs of a monetary system
> servicing the power structures best reclaim inter-dependence
> ---
> As for "paid work", yes, its a lot about "effective communication",
> "selling" our work to individuals or organizations that have access to
> resources ( including, as you say, non monetary resources ) , organizations
> of individuals that may see an interest in it.
> I guess this is how I was given the laptop computer on which I currently
> write.
> But I do not see this as a structural solution.
> There are various approaches...
> I believe in support at the level of peers...
> I want to participate in the development of a radical solution, by trying to
> envision and implement a software supporting human based computation
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-based_computation
> Although I am not a programmer, I am thinking about this kind of solution (
> draft ) :
> http://cashwiki.org/en/DebttoIntention
> As for me, my motivation , and my living strategy, after spending several
> years of roaming around by hitch hiking,
> is to re-converge locally, building up social networks and capital locally,
> continue learning and connecting people interested in collaborating locally,
> increasing autonomy through distributed inter-dependence,
> and inspiring myself from what you are doing.
> As I re-establish myself locally, I have more stability to find out about
> funding opportunities, and potentially create local partnerships to fund
> raise.  This mailing list and all the converging work and inspirations from
> the people on this list can empower me in setting up a clear vision for
> implementations at various levels of abstraction :-)
> Greetings from Brussels :-)
> Dante
> http://hitchwiki.org/en/Dante
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dante, I like your style, but I have a few counterpoints to some of this.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
>> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I agree.  There are a number of important differentiations.
>> > Or rather, I d like to see it as a number of "spectrum's" which ideally
>> > could be visualized in a multidimensional graph :-)
>> > See below in bold for a few spectrum's I notice in our conversation,
>> > and feel free to suggest added related spectrum's...
>> > Perhaps we could use it to make graphical representations and situate
>> > ourselves ?
>> > ----
>> >
>> > The first one you reacted to is paid work vs unpaid work.
>> > ( or perhaps also "pay to work" ? )
>> > "What is work" ? What is "paid work" ?
>> > What is "paid work" in the current dominant monetary paradigm ?
>> > And how is "work" recognized in potential other economic systems ?
>> > ( does it still need to be recognized ? will we pay to have our work
>> > recognized ? such as students in universities ? - unless they are paid
>> > for
>> > working on their Phd -  )
>>
>>
>> I think these are good questions. I'd also like to add: *Why* are you
>> doing this work? Are you doing it for the pay?
>>
>> What people are doing is important. Why they are doing what they are
>> doing is vital to understanding the system they see themselves as
>> being part of.
>>
>>
>> > If power structures do not need workers anymore, I imagine it is
>> > unlikely a
>> > majority of the population would get paid for working for what machines
>> > could make cheaper, faster, and without questioning authority.
>>
>> If machines do the work that we do now, we'll  turn our attentions to
>> new types of work (maybe figuring out how to turn all of mass around
>> us into computers and digital storage). Or, a dystopian outcome is:
>> freed up from the need to labor for survival, we turn on each
>> other....
>>
>> > Perhaps people would get paid for not revolting themselves against the
>> > status quo of power structures ?  Or perhaps it is cheaper to pay police
>> > and
>> > army forces to control parts of the population that are not required to
>> > service the dominant control/monetary system ?
>>
>> At least here in the US, there is enough work for at least 40 years
>> just re-making the education system :-) Wait until experience some
>> more collapses of globalized infrastructure. There's enough work for
>> every human on the planet in recreating our artificially globalized
>> infrastructure into networks of local systems
>>
>> > Or perhaps its even "cheaper" ( in terms of coercive control ) to
>> > eradicate
>> > such populations that would become to create their own systems and
>> > become
>> > too autonomous ?
>> > If we tend towards such a situation, I find it interesting to understand
>> > how
>> > to create an alternative economy where it is possible to produce for
>> > ourselves, preferably by using existing technologies.
>> > I already feel I am in such a situation : I do not seem to be servicing
>> > direct needs of the status quo of power structures, so as a result I am
>> > not
>> > paid for trying to change it.
>>
>> My approach is to convince them to try something really, really
>> different, and get them to fund that. It's up to you how you ask to be
>> funded. You can ask for money, or you could ask for them to give you a
>> piece of land, and enough materials to build a structure on it. etc
>> etc
>>
>> I think that "spectrum" could be intepreted by some people as meaning
>> "from one extreme to another". A finite range, with linear progression
>> from one end to another. And so, the inevitble question becomes "where
>> you you on this spectrum?"
>>
>> What if I get payed to produce things that people do not pay for?
>> Where do I fit on this spectrum? Where on the spectrum is the model of
>> convincing people who rely on enclosed resources to invest in creating
>> common pool resources that they participate in co-managing and using?
>> This is a picture of what I do.
>>
>> I want to advocate that there are more possibilities than may be
>> apparent if you view the picture through a "spectrum" of
>> possibilities. The actual nature of the system is non-linear, and so
>> it is not easy to see it through a linear lens.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Social Synergy
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>> http://notanemployee.net
>> http://communitywiki.org
>>
>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>
>



-- 
-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.com
http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
http://socialmediaclassroom.com
http://localfoodsystems.org
http://notanemployee.net
http://communitywiki.org

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan