[p2p-research] Fwd: VW's open and transparent Factory in dresden - Germany

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Hi Sam,
yes, and yes :-)

although initially I did not mean it to be a debate on my own motivations
and situation ,
but simply some comments encouraging to visualize and position ourselves
along such inter-related spectrum's,

as I notice that there may be differences in vision we ( some people on this
list ) may be building on according to these various spectrum's.

For example, Paul or Nathan mentioning increased automation, in certain
contexts, ...

And yes, I imagine we can also use such spectrum's to position not only our
visions, but our current situations :-)

I wanted to use such spectrum's not to limit ourselves into a linear form,
but to use various linear forms to position them on a multi-dimensional
map/graph of such gradual spectrum's, and also understand the non-linear
relations between these spectrum's ...

So I believe it can resonate with what you seem to express in your last
reply Sam :-)

As for replying in relation to me, here goes ( for anyone interested in
knowing a bit more about Dante :-p  )  :

---

I also believe that there is no lack of "work".
It all depends how one defines "work".

When I was younger, at school, I asked myself why "the news" was constantly
worried about "lack of work" when I saw so many things that needed to be
done.  So I understood their concern was about "paid work".  On the other
hand, I could see that there was so much money in the social background in
which I grew in. ( not my parents, but the parents of the kids I went to
school with ). I understood it was an issue of decision making and power.
Today, I understand its about artificial scarcity through , for example,
money hoarding; a need for constantly growing the monetary mass through debt
as to pay for formerly created debt ( principal ) plus the interest ,
through creating new markets, as to avoid collapse , requiring growth,
including speculative growth ( bubbles ), but only if it leads to increased
profits and power for the ones that already have power and money.  An
economic system at the service of the status quo of the structures of
power.

And so my own question becomes :

When power structures who have access to monetary creation ( through debt )
will have their needs satisfied without needing to pay a majority of the
population , how can the ones outside of the needs of a monetary system
servicing the power structures best reclaim inter-dependence

---

As for "paid work", yes, its a lot about "effective communication",
"selling" our work to individuals or organizations that have access to
resources ( including, as you say, non monetary resources ) , organizations
of individuals that may see an interest in it.

I guess this is how I was given the laptop computer on which I currently
write.

But I do not see this as a structural solution.

There are various approaches...

I believe in support at the level of peers...

I want to participate in the development of a radical solution, by trying to
envision and implement a software supporting human based computation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-based_computation

Although I am not a programmer, I am thinking about this kind of solution (
draft ) :

http://cashwiki.org/en/DebttoIntention

As for me, my motivation , and my living strategy, after spending several
years of roaming around by hitch hiking,

is to re-converge locally, building up social networks and capital locally,
continue learning and connecting people interested in collaborating locally,
increasing autonomy through distributed inter-dependence,
and inspiring myself from what you are doing.

As I re-establish myself locally, I have more stability to find out about
funding opportunities, and potentially create local partnerships to fund
raise.  This mailing list and all the converging work and inspirations from
the people on this list can empower me in setting up a clear vision for
implementations at various levels of abstraction :-)

Greetings from Brussels :-)
Dante

http://hitchwiki.org/en/Dante



On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dante, I like your style, but I have a few counterpoints to some of this.
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
> <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I agree.  There are a number of important differentiations.
> > Or rather, I d like to see it as a number of "spectrum's" which ideally
> > could be visualized in a multidimensional graph :-)
> > See below in bold for a few spectrum's I notice in our conversation,
> > and feel free to suggest added related spectrum's...
> > Perhaps we could use it to make graphical representations and situate
> > ourselves ?
> > ----
> >
> > The first one you reacted to is paid work vs unpaid work.
> > ( or perhaps also "pay to work" ? )
> > "What is work" ? What is "paid work" ?
> > What is "paid work" in the current dominant monetary paradigm ?
> > And how is "work" recognized in potential other economic systems ?
> > ( does it still need to be recognized ? will we pay to have our work
> > recognized ? such as students in universities ? - unless they are paid
> for
> > working on their Phd -  )
>
>
> I think these are good questions. I'd also like to add: *Why* are you
> doing this work? Are you doing it for the pay?
>
> What people are doing is important. Why they are doing what they are
> doing is vital to understanding the system they see themselves as
> being part of.
>
>
> > If power structures do not need workers anymore, I imagine it is unlikely
> a
> > majority of the population would get paid for working for what machines
> > could make cheaper, faster, and without questioning authority.
>
> If machines do the work that we do now, we'll  turn our attentions to
> new types of work (maybe figuring out how to turn all of mass around
> us into computers and digital storage). Or, a dystopian outcome is:
> freed up from the need to labor for survival, we turn on each
> other....
>
> > Perhaps people would get paid for not revolting themselves against the
> > status quo of power structures ?  Or perhaps it is cheaper to pay police
> and
> > army forces to control parts of the population that are not required to
> > service the dominant control/monetary system ?
>
> At least here in the US, there is enough work for at least 40 years
> just re-making the education system :-) Wait until experience some
> more collapses of globalized infrastructure. There's enough work for
> every human on the planet in recreating our artificially globalized
> infrastructure into networks of local systems
>
> > Or perhaps its even "cheaper" ( in terms of coercive control ) to
> eradicate
> > such populations that would become to create their own systems and become
> > too autonomous ?
> > If we tend towards such a situation, I find it interesting to understand
> how
> > to create an alternative economy where it is possible to produce for
> > ourselves, preferably by using existing technologies.
> > I already feel I am in such a situation : I do not seem to be servicing
> > direct needs of the status quo of power structures, so as a result I am
> not
> > paid for trying to change it.
>
> My approach is to convince them to try something really, really
> different, and get them to fund that. It's up to you how you ask to be
> funded. You can ask for money, or you could ask for them to give you a
> piece of land, and enough materials to build a structure on it. etc
> etc
>
> I think that "spectrum" could be intepreted by some people as meaning
> "from one extreme to another". A finite range, with linear progression
> from one end to another. And so, the inevitble question becomes "where
> you you on this spectrum?"
>
> What if I get payed to produce things that people do not pay for?
> Where do I fit on this spectrum? Where on the spectrum is the model of
> convincing people who rely on enclosed resources to invest in creating
> common pool resources that they participate in co-managing and using?
> This is a picture of what I do.
>
> I want to advocate that there are more possibilities than may be
> apparent if you view the picture through a "spectrum" of
> possibilities. The actual nature of the system is non-linear, and so
> it is not easy to see it through a linear lens.
>
> --
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> http://localfoodsystems.org
> http://notanemployee.net
> http://communitywiki.org
>
> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>
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