[p2p-research] Fwd: VW's open and transparent Factory in dresden - Germany

Mon Oct 12 13:37:28 CEST 2009

some more potentially important spectrum's :
- *Spectrum of Competition* ( more or less )
- *S**pectrum of Collaboration* ( more or less ? )

which relate to the
spectrum of Openness and Transparency / *Spectrum of Access and
Inclusiveness* ( ? )

which relates to ( or may in some cases "contain", from a higher abstraction
dimension ? ) the spectrum of control ... the spectrum of empowerment ...
and the spectrum's of Competition and Collaboration... ?

To visualize all these spectrum's, I wish to have access to a tool to
visualize based on the position of any ( conceptual or process ) object
within a system compared to all others... and to have an immersive point of
view based on the criteria selected ( such as various spectrum's )... and be
able to compare it to the position of any other concept or process...

but until we end up with ( building ? ) such a tool,
I guess we can visualize the comparison of multiple dimensions and multiple
abstractions with our frontal lobe of our neo-cortex :-)

Although if anyone would like to work with me to create some program to
visualize it and create protocols relating them,
I m eager to share some of my thinking and references related to it :-)

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:

> some more spectrum's worth adding ?
> - spectrum of automation ( automized production / "work" ? VS human input
> in production ? )
> - spectrum of energy and resource use ( efficiency ? and quantity of
> accessible resources provided at certain amount of "work" ? )
> - spectrum of health ( ? )
> - spectrum of control, between high and lower levels of coercion
>
> ... more spectrum's ?
>
> And how do all these spectrum's inter-relate and impact each other ?
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:00 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> other spectrum's :
>> spectrum of sustainability ( related to spectrum of probability ? )
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com>
>> Date: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: VW's open and transparent Factory in
>> dresden - Germany
>> To: Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org>
>> Cc: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>, Ryan Lanham <
>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> I agree.  There are a number of important differentiations.
>> Or rather, I d like to see it as a number of "spectrum's" which ideally
>> could be visualized in a multidimensional graph :-)
>>
>> See below in bold for a few spectrum's I notice in our conversation,
>> and feel free to suggest added related spectrum's...
>>
>> Perhaps we could use it to make graphical representations and situate
>> ourselves ?
>>
>> ----
>>
>> The first one you reacted to is paid work vs unpaid work.
>> ( or perhaps also "pay to work" ? )
>>
>> "What is work" ? What is "paid work" ?
>> What is "paid work" in the current dominant monetary paradigm ?
>> And how is "work" recognized in potential other economic systems ?
>> ( does it still need to be recognized ? will we pay to have our work
>> recognized ? such as students in universities ? - unless they are paid for
>> working on their Phd -  )
>>
>> If power structures do not need workers anymore, I imagine it is unlikely
>> a majority of the population would get paid for working for what machines
>> could make cheaper, faster, and without questioning authority.
>>
>> Perhaps people would get paid for not revolting themselves against the
>> status quo of power structures ?  Or perhaps it is cheaper to pay police and
>> army forces to control parts of the population that are not required to
>> service the dominant control/monetary system ?
>> Or perhaps its even "cheaper" ( in terms of coercive control ) to
>> eradicate such populations that would become to create their own systems and
>> become too autonomous ?
>>
>> If we tend towards such a situation, I find it interesting to understand
>> how to create an alternative economy where it is possible to produce for
>> ourselves, preferably by using existing technologies.
>>
>> I already feel I am in such a situation : I do not seem to be servicing
>> direct needs of the status quo of power structures, so as a result I am not
>> paid for trying to change it.
>>
>> I am not paid at all, yet I m constantly producing and collaborating
>> online and offline, from early morning till the middle of night, through the
>> power of intrinsic motivation.
>>
>> Which leads us back to this multidimensional graph... and its
>> various spectrum's.
>>
>> Would you agree to some of these spectrum's, or do you have suggestions
>> for more inter-related spectrum's  as part of a broader image :
>>
>>
>> - *spectrum of money* ( in its current mainstream, coercive debt and
>> interest based fiat form )
>> from "paying for working" to "not being paid to work" to "being paid to
>> work"
>>
>> Also , what does it mean to "not be paid to work" ?
>> Does it mean working in a context where all our expenses are covered ?
>>
>> - *spectrum of reputation* credit ( more or less of it, through various
>> ways recognizing it - we could define these various forms of recognition ,
>> ... and what may be the psychological and systemic effects of reputation in
>> various contexts - does it enable access to a *spectrum of* *more or less
>> social capital ?* )
>>
>>
>> - *spectrum of pleasure *( more or less pleasure - directly gratified or
>> not ? passion ? sense of meaning ? ... I guess the spectrum of "pleasure"
>> can branch out in many different spectrums )
>>
>> - and eventually a *spectrum of expected results through time* ( spectrum
>> of probability ? )
>>
>> and these three spectrum's being part of the combination of resilience vs
>> complexity spectrum's ( ? ) :
>>
>> - *spectrum of autonomy ( resilience ? )*
>>
>> - *spectrum of inter-dependence ( complexity ? )*
>>
>> note : the spectrum's of autonomy and inter-dependence enable to visualize
>> if it is a low autonomy / high inter-dependence system ( such as when one
>> person earns a lot of money but is highly dependent on this money to have
>> access to resources in a highly inter-dependent society ) , if its a high
>> autonomy / low interdependence system ( such as one extreme of it being a
>> person that survives through its interdependence with nature but not on a
>> society, by having its plot of land and hunting to survive ) , or high
>> autonomy / high interdependence enabling emergent autonomy through increased
>> distributed interdependence ( such as certain potential forms of open
>> manufacturing ? )
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with you totally on this, Michel.  I work 60-70 hours a week..am
>>> paid for 37.5 out of which I work maybe 20.  Then I work on a PhD.  I am not
>>> seeking more liesure or even more pay.  I am seeking less stress, greater
>>> relevance, and more meaningful interactions.  Work is fun.
>>>
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems to me such a debate is too simplistic ... while we could
>>>> conceivably technically reduce working hours in a market economy .. (given a
>>>> miraculous strength of social movements), it keeps quiet about people like
>>>> me, and presumably quite a bit of you, who 'work' more than ever ... only
>>>> that for us, passionate producers, the whole notion of work and leisure has
>>>> lost its meaning ...
>>>>
>>>> we can see from the experience of france with the 35 hour week, that
>>>> even that demand, which had clear advantages in some fields, no longer
>>>> carries public support ... if anything, the mentality seems to be that
>>>> 'people are not working enough' ...
>>>>
>>>> so I don't see this as a realistic way to approach the issue ... except
>>>> for a small grouping of people ...
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>>>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Paul :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, by the above analogy, we should be able to all work two hour
>>>>>> days if demand is limited back to 1950s levels.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> a german friend ( hes nickname is "Darwin Dante" ) argues that 5 hours
>>>>> a week of work are enough :
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.5-stunden-woche.de/index.2htm.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> although if I understood properly, hes argument goes towards reducing
>>>>> the number of hours each of us works, to enable all to have access to ( paid
>>>>> ) work... :-o
>>>>>
>>>>> the google translation from hes german version seems to be more precise
>>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=y&u=http://www.5-stunden-woche.de/index.1htm.htm&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>>>>> I also feel like comparing hes argument with "Intermediate
>>>>> Technologies"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriate_technology#Intermediate_technology
>>>>> *
>>>>> *
>>>>> *" **Proponents argue that such items can be easily purchased and used
>>>>> by poor people, and according to proponents can lead to greater **
>>>>> productivity* <http://wiki/Productivity_%28economics%29>* while
>>>>> minimizing **social dislocation* <http://wiki/Social_alienation>*.
>>>>> Much intermediate technology can also be built and serviced using locally
>>>>> available materials and knowledge. This intermediate technology is conducive
>>>>> to decentralization, compatible with the laws of ecology, gentle in its use
>>>>> of scarce resources, and designed to serve the human person instead of
>>>>> making him the servant of machines. "*
>>>>>
>>>>> although Darwin Dante's examples include high productivity
>>>>> technologies, and might perhaps not solve the social dislocation issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> *
>>>>> *
>>>>> *It seems to me that p2p open manufacturing is a form of **intermediate
>>>>> / appropriate technology*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriate_technology#Intermediate_technology>
>>>>> *.*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan Lanham
>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>> P.O. Box 633
>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>> Cayman Islands
>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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