[p2p-research] Fwd: VW's open and transparent Factory in dresden - Germany

Mon Oct 12 13:16:41 CEST 2009

some more spectrum's worth adding ?
- spectrum of automation ( automized production / "work" ? VS human input in
production ? )
- spectrum of energy and resource use ( efficiency ? and quantity of
accessible resources provided at certain amount of "work" ? )
- spectrum of health ( ? )
- spectrum of control, between high and lower levels of coercion

... more spectrum's ?

And how do all these spectrum's inter-relate and impact each other ?

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:00 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:

> other spectrum's :
> spectrum of sustainability ( related to spectrum of probability ? )
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [p2p-research] Fwd: VW's open and transparent Factory in
> dresden - Germany
> To: Peer-To-Peer Research List <p2presearch at listcultures.org>
> Cc: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>, Ryan Lanham <
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com>
>
>
> I agree.  There are a number of important differentiations.
> Or rather, I d like to see it as a number of "spectrum's" which ideally
> could be visualized in a multidimensional graph :-)
>
> See below in bold for a few spectrum's I notice in our conversation,
> and feel free to suggest added related spectrum's...
>
> Perhaps we could use it to make graphical representations and situate
> ourselves ?
>
> ----
>
> The first one you reacted to is paid work vs unpaid work.
> ( or perhaps also "pay to work" ? )
>
> "What is work" ? What is "paid work" ?
> What is "paid work" in the current dominant monetary paradigm ?
> And how is "work" recognized in potential other economic systems ?
> ( does it still need to be recognized ? will we pay to have our work
> recognized ? such as students in universities ? - unless they are paid for
> working on their Phd -  )
>
> If power structures do not need workers anymore, I imagine it is unlikely a
> majority of the population would get paid for working for what machines
> could make cheaper, faster, and without questioning authority.
>
> Perhaps people would get paid for not revolting themselves against the
> status quo of power structures ?  Or perhaps it is cheaper to pay police and
> army forces to control parts of the population that are not required to
> service the dominant control/monetary system ?
> Or perhaps its even "cheaper" ( in terms of coercive control ) to eradicate
> such populations that would become to create their own systems and become
> too autonomous ?
>
> If we tend towards such a situation, I find it interesting to understand
> how to create an alternative economy where it is possible to produce for
> ourselves, preferably by using existing technologies.
>
> I already feel I am in such a situation : I do not seem to be servicing
> direct needs of the status quo of power structures, so as a result I am not
> paid for trying to change it.
>
> I am not paid at all, yet I m constantly producing and collaborating online
> and offline, from early morning till the middle of night, through the power
> of intrinsic motivation.
>
> Which leads us back to this multidimensional graph... and its
> various spectrum's.
>
> Would you agree to some of these spectrum's, or do you have suggestions for
> more inter-related spectrum's  as part of a broader image :
>
>
> - *spectrum of money* ( in its current mainstream, coercive debt and
> interest based fiat form )
> from "paying for working" to "not being paid to work" to "being paid to
> work"
>
> Also , what does it mean to "not be paid to work" ?
> Does it mean working in a context where all our expenses are covered ?
>
> - *spectrum of reputation* credit ( more or less of it, through various
> ways recognizing it - we could define these various forms of recognition ,
> ... and what may be the psychological and systemic effects of reputation in
> various contexts - does it enable access to a *spectrum of* *more or less
> social capital ?* )
>
>
> - *spectrum of pleasure *( more or less pleasure - directly gratified or
> not ? passion ? sense of meaning ? ... I guess the spectrum of "pleasure"
> can branch out in many different spectrums )
>
> - and eventually a *spectrum of expected results through time* ( spectrum
> of probability ? )
>
> and these three spectrum's being part of the combination of resilience vs
> complexity spectrum's ( ? ) :
>
> - *spectrum of autonomy ( resilience ? )*
>
> - *spectrum of inter-dependence ( complexity ? )*
>
> note : the spectrum's of autonomy and inter-dependence enable to visualize
> if it is a low autonomy / high inter-dependence system ( such as when one
> person earns a lot of money but is highly dependent on this money to have
> access to resources in a highly inter-dependent society ) , if its a high
> autonomy / low interdependence system ( such as one extreme of it being a
> person that survives through its interdependence with nature but not on a
> society, by having its plot of land and hunting to survive ) , or high
> autonomy / high interdependence enabling emergent autonomy through increased
> distributed interdependence ( such as certain potential forms of open
> manufacturing ? )
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I agree with you totally on this, Michel.  I work 60-70 hours a week..am
>> paid for 37.5 out of which I work maybe 20.  Then I work on a PhD.  I am not
>> seeking more liesure or even more pay.  I am seeking less stress, greater
>> relevance, and more meaningful interactions.  Work is fun.
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> It seems to me such a debate is too simplistic ... while we could
>>> conceivably technically reduce working hours in a market economy .. (given a
>>> miraculous strength of social movements), it keeps quiet about people like
>>> me, and presumably quite a bit of you, who 'work' more than ever ... only
>>> that for us, passionate producers, the whole notion of work and leisure has
>>> lost its meaning ...
>>>
>>> we can see from the experience of france with the 35 hour week, that even
>>> that demand, which had clear advantages in some fields, no longer carries
>>> public support ... if anything, the mentality seems to be that 'people are
>>> not working enough' ...
>>>
>>> so I don't see this as a realistic way to approach the issue ... except
>>> for a small grouping of people ...
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul :
>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, by the above analogy, we should be able to all work two hour
>>>>> days if demand is limited back to 1950s levels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> a german friend ( hes nickname is "Darwin Dante" ) argues that 5 hours a
>>>> week of work are enough :
>>>>
>>>> http://www.5-stunden-woche.de/index.2htm.htm
>>>>
>>>> although if I understood properly, hes argument goes towards reducing
>>>> the number of hours each of us works, to enable all to have access to ( paid
>>>> ) work... :-o
>>>>
>>>> the google translation from hes german version seems to be more precise
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=y&u=http://www.5-stunden-woche.de/index.1htm.htm&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>>
>>>> I also feel like comparing hes argument with "Intermediate Technologies"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriate_technology#Intermediate_technology
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> *" **Proponents argue that such items can be easily purchased and used
>>>> by poor people, and according to proponents can lead to greater **
>>>> productivity* <http://wiki/Productivity_%28economics%29>* while
>>>> minimizing **social dislocation* <http://wiki/Social_alienation>*. Much
>>>> intermediate technology can also be built and serviced using locally
>>>> available materials and knowledge. This intermediate technology is conducive
>>>> to decentralization, compatible with the laws of ecology, gentle in its use
>>>> of scarce resources, and designed to serve the human person instead of
>>>> making him the servant of machines. "*
>>>>
>>>> although Darwin Dante's examples include high productivity technologies,
>>>> and might perhaps not solve the social dislocation issue.
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> *It seems to me that p2p open manufacturing is a form of **intermediate
>>>> / appropriate technology*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriate_technology#Intermediate_technology>
>>>> *.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Ryan Lanham
>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>> P.O. Box 633
>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>> Cayman Islands
>> (345) 916-1712
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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