[p2p-research] Fwd: VW's open and transparent Factory in dresden - Germany

Mon Oct 12 12:52:25 CEST 2009

I agree.  There are a number of important differentiations.
Or rather, I d like to see it as a number of "spectrum's" which ideally
could be visualized in a multidimensional graph :-)

See below in bold for a few spectrum's I notice in our conversation,
and feel free to suggest added related spectrum's...

Perhaps we could use it to make graphical representations and situate
ourselves ?

----

The first one you reacted to is paid work vs unpaid work.
( or perhaps also "pay to work" ? )

"What is work" ? What is "paid work" ?
What is "paid work" in the current dominant monetary paradigm ?
And how is "work" recognized in potential other economic systems ?
( does it still need to be recognized ? will we pay to have our work
recognized ? such as students in universities ? - unless they are paid for
working on their Phd -  )

If power structures do not need workers anymore, I imagine it is unlikely a
majority of the population would get paid for working for what machines
could make cheaper, faster, and without questioning authority.

Perhaps people would get paid for not revolting themselves against the
status quo of power structures ?  Or perhaps it is cheaper to pay police and
army forces to control parts of the population that are not required to
service the dominant control/monetary system ?
Or perhaps its even "cheaper" ( in terms of coercive control ) to eradicate
such populations that would become to create their own systems and become
too autonomous ?

If we tend towards such a situation, I find it interesting to understand how
to create an alternative economy where it is possible to produce for
ourselves, preferably by using existing technologies.

I already feel I am in such a situation : I do not seem to be servicing
direct needs of the status quo of power structures, so as a result I am not
paid for trying to change it.

I am not paid at all, yet I m constantly producing and collaborating online
and offline, from early morning till the middle of night, through the power
of intrinsic motivation.

Which leads us back to this multidimensional graph... and its
various spectrum's.

Would you agree to some of these spectrum's, or do you have suggestions for
more inter-related spectrum's  as part of a broader image :

- *spectrum of money* ( in its current mainstream, coercive debt and
interest based fiat form )
from "paying for working" to "not being paid to work" to "being paid to
work"

Also , what does it mean to "not be paid to work" ?
Does it mean working in a context where all our expenses are covered ?

- *spectrum of reputation* credit ( more or less of it, through various ways
recognizing it - we could define these various forms of recognition , ...
and what may be the psychological and systemic effects of reputation in
various contexts - does it enable access to a *spectrum of* *more or less
social capital ?* )

- *spectrum of pleasure *( more or less pleasure - directly gratified or not
? passion ? sense of meaning ? ... I guess the spectrum of "pleasure" can
branch out in many different spectrums )

- and eventually a *spectrum of expected results through time* ( spectrum of
probability ? )

and these three spectrum's being part of the combination of resilience vs
complexity spectrum's ( ? ) :

- *spectrum of autonomy ( resilience ? )*

- *spectrum of inter-dependence ( complexity ? )*

note : the spectrum's of autonomy and inter-dependence enable to visualize
if it is a low autonomy / high inter-dependence system ( such as when one
person earns a lot of money but is highly dependent on this money to have
access to resources in a highly inter-dependent society ) , if its a high
autonomy / low interdependence system ( such as one extreme of it being a
person that survives through its interdependence with nature but not on a
society, by having its plot of land and hunting to survive ) , or high
autonomy / high interdependence enabling emergent autonomy through increased
distributed interdependence ( such as certain potential forms of open
manufacturing ? )

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree with you totally on this, Michel.  I work 60-70 hours a week..am
> paid for 37.5 out of which I work maybe 20.  Then I work on a PhD.  I am not
> seeking more liesure or even more pay.  I am seeking less stress, greater
> relevance, and more meaningful interactions.  Work is fun.
>
> R.
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> It seems to me such a debate is too simplistic ... while we could
>> conceivably technically reduce working hours in a market economy .. (given a
>> miraculous strength of social movements), it keeps quiet about people like
>> me, and presumably quite a bit of you, who 'work' more than ever ... only
>> that for us, passionate producers, the whole notion of work and leisure has
>> lost its meaning ...
>>
>> we can see from the experience of france with the 35 hour week, that even
>> that demand, which had clear advantages in some fields, no longer carries
>> public support ... if anything, the mentality seems to be that 'people are
>> not working enough' ...
>>
>> so I don't see this as a realistic way to approach the issue ... except
>> for a small grouping of people ...
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Paul :
>>>
>>>> Anyway, by the above analogy, we should be able to all work two hour
>>>> days if demand is limited back to 1950s levels.
>>>
>>>
>>> a german friend ( hes nickname is "Darwin Dante" ) argues that 5 hours a
>>> week of work are enough :
>>>
>>> http://www.5-stunden-woche.de/index.2htm.htm
>>>
>>> although if I understood properly, hes argument goes towards reducing the
>>> number of hours each of us works, to enable all to have access to ( paid )
>>> work... :-o
>>>
>>> the google translation from hes german version seems to be more precise :
>>>
>>>
>>> http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=y&u=http://www.5-stunden-woche.de/index.1htm.htm&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> I also feel like comparing hes argument with "Intermediate Technologies"
>>>
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriate_technology#Intermediate_technology
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *" **Proponents argue that such items can be easily purchased and used
>>> by poor people, and according to proponents can lead to greater **
>>> productivity* <http://wiki/Productivity_%28economics%29>* while
>>> minimizing **social dislocation* <http://wiki/Social_alienation>*. Much
>>> intermediate technology can also be built and serviced using locally
>>> available materials and knowledge. This intermediate technology is conducive
>>> to decentralization, compatible with the laws of ecology, gentle in its use
>>> of scarce resources, and designed to serve the human person instead of
>>> making him the servant of machines. "*
>>>
>>> although Darwin Dante's examples include high productivity technologies,
>>> and might perhaps not solve the social dislocation issue.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *It seems to me that p2p open manufacturing is a form of **intermediate
>>> / appropriate technology*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriate_technology#Intermediate_technology>
>>> *.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>
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