[p2p-research] [Autonomo.us] ESR complains about "forge" lock-in

Sat Oct 10 19:11:01 CEST 2009

I should have written that I will do this as soon as I have a chance.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for your comments Sam,
>
> if anyone feels like streamlining them for blog publication, it would be
> most appreciated,
>
> Michel
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 4:39 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > This seems quite significant ... I'm hoping that Sam or Sepp might have
>> > intelligent commentary on the issue, for publication on the p2p blog ..
>> > °
>> > nathan: this also has relevance for the manchester event on
>> > collaborative
>> > platforms,
>> >
>> > Michel
>> >
>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> > From: Wes Felter <wesley at felter.org>
>> > Date: Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:21 AM
>> > Subject: [Autonomo.us] ESR complains about "forge" lock-in
>> > To: "autonomo.us mailing list" <discuss at lists.autonomo.us>
>> >
>> >
>> > http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1282
>> >
>> > "The worst problem with almost all current hosting sites is that
>> > they’re data jails. You can put data (the source code revision
>> > history, mailing list address lists, bug reports) into them, but
>> > getting a complete snapshot of that data back out often ranges from
>> > painful to impossible."
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> *if* you are using distributed revision control (ie GIT, Mercirual,
>> DARCS) this is not an issue. Because, you would "push" from the repo
>> on your local computer, and you can set up scripts to pull or clone
>> and copy to your own machines and computers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Example:
>>
>>
>> I can develop FLOWS locally on my own machine here:
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/hg/repos/hgwebdir.cgi/flows-dev/  and push
>> changes to what amounts to a public mirror of the code here
>> http://code.google.com/p/flows-dev/source/browse/
>>
>> Mercurial distributed revision control keeps track of everything. So,
>> in this case, I could host code at
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/hg/repos/hgwebdir.cgi/flows-dev/ then push
>> changes to *all* of the hosting sites (bit bucket, code google, etc,
>> anyone that supports mercurial), but if they all went down tomorrow,
>> it wouldn't matter, as long as I automate the updating of
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/hg/repos/hgwebdir.cgi/flows-dev/  I would
>> have something that is at least close to what would be on the hosting
>> sites.
>>
>> Distributed revision control effectively stops hosting sites from
>> being data jails of the code. Maybe they are data jails of issues,
>> documentation, etc. But, you don't have to use them for that!  We use
>> http://flows.panarchy.com/index.php?title=Main_Page for instance, not
>> code google We'll also host our own issue tracking (we will likely use
>> bugs everywhere a distribted issue reporting) and not use google for
>> this same reason http://bugseverywhere.org/be/show/HomePage right now,
>> even docs could be part of mercurial repo, which means docs will live
>> with copies of code and be locally branchable and changeable and
>> re-mergable). There is even already an interface that makes this
>> possible via http://hatta-wiki.org/ which will write documentation
>> straight to a mercurial repository.
>>
>> counterpoints I have heard from people include that they are worried
>> that *I* will disappear, and then hope that the open source project
>> will be able to continue without me, and so should be hosted in a
>> public place and not just my servers.  Also, many want the code in
>> public servers for the visibility they provide, and they are trying to
>> attract people to the project.
>>
>> I am personally agnostic to the whole debate. The problem is 100%
>> solved for me with distributed revision control, distributed
>> documentation, distributed bug tracking (all of which are possible
>> now)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1295
>> >
>> > "I conclude that the SourceForge/GForge/FusionForge architecture, as
>> > it is now, is an evolutionary dead end — overspecialized for
>> > webbiness. To tackle challenges like fixing the data-jail problem,
>> > scripting, and seamless project migration, one of these systems will
>> > need to be rebuilt from the inside out."
>>
>>
>>
>> He's right about source forge being an evolutionary dead end
>>
>>
>> Yet, I think much of the issue has already been solved with
>> distributed infrastructure.
>>
>> A "source forge" site could basically just be a mirror
>> code/docs/issues, and/or even better yet, an *aggregator* of projects
>> in the future (this is 100% possible now)
>>
>>
>> All of that being said, if the writer of the blog posts referenced
>> above succeeds at his mission, I will applaud him, as there are
>> probably always going to be some people who reject the distributed
>> development path and therefore will need services like this.
>>
>> I just want to make clear that there is already a solution, and it
>> could even be employed by people who want full control over their
>> "official release".
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Wes Felter
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Discuss mailing list
>> > Discuss at lists.autonomo.us
>> > http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>> > Research:
>> > http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>> >
>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> >
>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>> >
>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Social Synergy
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.com
>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>> http://notanemployee.net
>> http://communitywiki.org
>>
>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.com
http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
http://socialmediaclassroom.com
http://localfoodsystems.org
http://notanemployee.net
http://communitywiki.org

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan