[p2p-research] [Autonomo.us] ESR complains about "forge" lock-in

Sat Oct 10 19:05:16 CEST 2009

Thanks for your comments Sam,

if anyone feels like streamlining them for blog publication, it would be
most appreciated,

Michel

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 4:39 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > This seems quite significant ... I'm hoping that Sam or Sepp might have
> > intelligent commentary on the issue, for publication on the p2p blog ..
> > °
> > nathan: this also has relevance for the manchester event on collaborative
> > platforms,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Wes Felter <wesley at felter.org>
> > Date: Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:21 AM
> > Subject: [Autonomo.us] ESR complains about "forge" lock-in
> > To: "autonomo.us mailing list" <discuss at lists.autonomo.us>
> >
> >
> > http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1282
> >
> > "The worst problem with almost all current hosting sites is that
> > they’re data jails. You can put data (the source code revision
> > history, mailing list address lists, bug reports) into them, but
> > getting a complete snapshot of that data back out often ranges from
> > painful to impossible."
> >
>
>
>
> *if* you are using distributed revision control (ie GIT, Mercirual,
> DARCS) this is not an issue. Because, you would "push" from the repo
> on your local computer, and you can set up scripts to pull or clone
> and copy to your own machines and computers
>
>
>
>
> Example:
>
>
> I can develop FLOWS locally on my own machine here:
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/hg/repos/hgwebdir.cgi/flows-dev/  and push
> changes to what amounts to a public mirror of the code here
> http://code.google.com/p/flows-dev/source/browse/
>
> Mercurial distributed revision control keeps track of everything. So,
> in this case, I could host code at
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/hg/repos/hgwebdir.cgi/flows-dev/ then push
> changes to *all* of the hosting sites (bit bucket, code google, etc,
> anyone that supports mercurial), but if they all went down tomorrow,
> it wouldn't matter, as long as I automate the updating of
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/hg/repos/hgwebdir.cgi/flows-dev/  I would
> have something that is at least close to what would be on the hosting
> sites.
>
> Distributed revision control effectively stops hosting sites from
> being data jails of the code. Maybe they are data jails of issues,
> documentation, etc. But, you don't have to use them for that!  We use
> http://flows.panarchy.com/index.php?title=Main_Page for instance, not
> code google We'll also host our own issue tracking (we will likely use
> bugs everywhere a distribted issue reporting) and not use google for
> this same reason http://bugseverywhere.org/be/show/HomePage right now,
> even docs could be part of mercurial repo, which means docs will live
> with copies of code and be locally branchable and changeable and
> re-mergable). There is even already an interface that makes this
> possible via http://hatta-wiki.org/ which will write documentation
> straight to a mercurial repository.
>
> counterpoints I have heard from people include that they are worried
> that *I* will disappear, and then hope that the open source project
> will be able to continue without me, and so should be hosted in a
> public place and not just my servers.  Also, many want the code in
> public servers for the visibility they provide, and they are trying to
> attract people to the project.
>
> I am personally agnostic to the whole debate. The problem is 100%
> solved for me with distributed revision control, distributed
> documentation, distributed bug tracking (all of which are possible
> now)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1295
> >
> > "I conclude that the SourceForge/GForge/FusionForge architecture, as
> > it is now, is an evolutionary dead end — overspecialized for
> > webbiness. To tackle challenges like fixing the data-jail problem,
> > scripting, and seamless project migration, one of these systems will
> > need to be rebuilt from the inside out."
>
>
>
> He's right about source forge being an evolutionary dead end
>
>
> Yet, I think much of the issue has already been solved with
> distributed infrastructure.
>
> A "source forge" site could basically just be a mirror
> code/docs/issues, and/or even better yet, an *aggregator* of projects
> in the future (this is 100% possible now)
>
>
> All of that being said, if the writer of the blog posts referenced
> above succeeds at his mission, I will applaud him, as there are
> probably always going to be some people who reject the distributed
> development path and therefore will need services like this.
>
> I just want to make clear that there is already a solution, and it
> could even be employed by people who want full control over their
> "official release".
>
>
> >
> > Wes Felter
> > _______________________________________________
> > Discuss mailing list
> > Discuss at lists.autonomo.us
> > http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
> Research:
> > http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
> > http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Sam Rose
> Social Synergy
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.com
> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> http://localfoodsystems.org
> http://notanemployee.net
> http://communitywiki.org
>
> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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