[p2p-research] Inflamed passions -- Why do vaccines trigger such passionate debate?

[Paul D. Fernhout]

As I pointed out in earlier, AIDS can be spread by dirty reused vaccination 
needles:
"Research Suggests Dirty Needles Bigger Cause of African AIDS Than Thought"
http://www.thebody.com/content/art28599.html

"Countered" by:
   "Dirty needles research rejected"
   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2782483.stm
"The United Nations has disputed the findings of United States researchers 
which says most HIV infections in Africa result from dirty medical needles. 
... The research estimates that about 60% of people with HIV in Africa 
become infected mainly through contaminated needles rather than through 
sexual contact, but the UNAids organisation puts the figure at nearer 5%."

But, what is even 5% of 25 million? 1.25 milion.
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_Africa

So, even by the most conservative effort, vaccination (the biggest use of 
needles I'd suspect) has directly killed a million people, plus all the 
others they might have infected. (Assuming the AIDS totals are correct; some 
dispute them, because there is less help for people dying of things other 
than AIDS.)

That's part of the problem with creating a single point of failure with some 
common procedure you apply to the entire population.
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Point_of_Failure

If you believe the high figure, then vaccination has likely caused maybe 
fifteen million AIDS cases (assuming some spread after the dirty needle use 
for the vaccinated to others).

Of course, rather than admit millions of people in Africa were sentenced to 
death by immunization, which might require spending money to help fix the 
problem as much as possible, it is easier to give those other impressions, 
basically blaming the victim.
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/colonialism-is-to-blame-for-africas-problems
"President Obama, Enough is Enough!   Young African American students are 
baffled by your audacity to suggest that the contemporary problems of Africa 
should be disengaged from the legacies and exigencies of colonialism, 
neo-colonialism and western oppression."

Still, I'm not 100% sure how much needle use was for vaccination and how 
much for other things. So, it might be less. But, so even if it was just 
hundreds of thousands, that would still be a lot.

But it also all helps explain:
   "The NED, NGOs and the Imperial Uses of Philanthropy: Why They Hate Our 
Kind Hearts, Too"
   http://www.counterpunch.org/roelofs05132006.html

Anyway, here you are arguing how people who question vaccination should be 
locked up, and you don't know about maybe millions dying of them in Africa. 
This isn't meant to pick on you personally. No doubt most people in the USA 
would not think about this. But it shows how fast the ground can slide under 
supporting what seemed a straightforward statist intervention.

Now, you may say that could never happen in the USA, that US doctors would 
reuse needles. And, barring mistakes and accidental jabs, I'd agree.

But it is an example of what actually happened somewhere with vaccination.

Recipe for disaster:
* Make one substance in one factory (or even a few).
* Inject in in almost everybody in the society all at once.
* What could possible go wrong? :-(

Maybe that helps explain that other news item you linked to?
   "A third of U.S. parents oppose swine flu vaccine: Some fear side 
effects, others say new flu won't be so bad, AP poll finds"
   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33212378/ns/health-swine_flu

The last "swine flu" vaccine debacle:
"Swine Flu Vaccine of 1976- More Harm than Good?"
http://healthandsurvival.com/2009/04/26/swine-flu-vaccine-of-1976-more-harm-than-good/ 

"What did materialize were cases of a rare side effect thought to be linked 
to the shot. The unexpected development cut short the vaccination effort — 
an unprecedented national campaign — after 10 weeks. The episode triggered 
an enduring public backlash against flu vaccination, embarrassed the federal 
government and cost the director of the U.S. Center for Disease Control, now 
known as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, his job."

Mass vaccination is a national security risk. It may have other values if it 
reduces the risk for one disease, but one can't deny the other larger risk. 
Some sort of DNA timebomb in a flu vaccine could wipe out an entire society. 
Now that some vaccines are made with recombinant DNA, what is really in them?

Here is an example on a small scale, of a leader getting everyone repeatedly 
to ingest something over and over until one time it was poison:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

Why set up an infrastructure and ideology that creates such a systemic risk?

Wasn't SV40 contamination of the Polio vaccine enough of a warning?

Possibly, polio might even be curable in the early stages with massive doses 
of vitamin C? I'm not sure, but it's intriguing:
   "The Origin of the 42-Year Stonewall of Vitamin C"
http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/199x/landwehr-r-j_orthomol_med-1991-v6-n2-p99.htm
"One of the reasons why Klenner’s declaration at the AMA annual session was 
undoubtedly met with silence was that since 1939 polio experts were quite 
certain that vitamin C was not effective against polio. There seemed little 
doubt that Dr. Albert B. Sabin, a highly respected figure in medical 
research even before he developed his successful vaccines, had demonstrated 
that vitamin C had no value in combatting polio viruses. In 1939 he 
published a paper showing that vitamin C had no effect in preventing 
paralysis in rhesus monkeys experimentally infected with a strain of polio 
virus. He had tried to corroborate the work of Dr. Claus W. Jungeblut, 
another highly respected medical researcher, who had published in 1935 and 
1937 papers indicating that vitamin C might be of benefit. Sabin could not 
reproduce Jungeblut’s results even though he consulted Jungeblut during the 
course of the experiments. It seemed to be a fair trial, and Sabin’s 
negative results virtually ended experiments with vitamin C and polio. How 
then could a Dr. Fred R. Klenner, a virtually unknown general practitioner 
specializing in diseases of the chest, from a town no one ever heard of, 
with no national credentials, no research grants and no experimental 
laboratory, have the nerve to make his sweeping claim in front of that 
prestigious body of polio authorities?"

Another random link: :-)
   "Government Risks Male Sterility As Mumps Vaccine Fails"
   http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/mumps-vaccine-fails/
"""
Two new medical papers in Vaccine and Eurosurveillance respectively show 
this 10th April  2009 Daily Mail story – "Students suffering as cases of 
mumps treble" – is wrong about the reasons for adult mumps outbreaks.
   The new medical papers show:-
     * the mumps vaccine is failing – with vaccinated individuals catching 
mumps as adults
     * but unvaccinated individuals are not
Mumps in adults but not children can cause an atrophied testicle and 
(rarely) male sterility. Mumps outbreaks in older individuals is a known 
effect of introducing vaccination. It pushes childhood diseases into the 
adult population. [A known concern with chickenpox vaccine is serious 
shingles outbreaks in the older population.]
   Children who catch mumps naturally gain lifelong immunity but are at no 
risk of atrophy or sterility. Mumps vaccination was not recommended by the 
British Medical Association, Joint Committee on Vaccination and 
Immunisation, Ministry of Defence and Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great 
Britain  from at least 1974 and prior to the 1988 introduction of the MMR 
[see below].
   A reason unvaccinated individuals are not developing mumps as adults is 
that they caught natural mumps as children and this may have been 
asymptomatic [ie. they showed no symptoms].  Asymptomatic infection is a 
known phenomenon and becomes more common as the severity of infectious 
diseases wanes in the population over time.
   In contrast, the hypothesis put by the authors of the paper cited below 
makes little sense – they suggest the unvaccinated are not catching mumps as 
adults [when the vaccinated are] because of high vaccination uptake rates. 
If that were the case then the vaccinated would not be catching mumps as 
adults either.
"""

But, if parents don't want the mumps vaccine, lock 'em up, right? :-) Even 
if the vaccination program has essentially created a huge problem? 
Apparently, adults now need mumps vaccinations every decade or so?

And we can lock up the rest of those Africans who are suspicious of needles 
at this point, too. :-) They can keep each other company.

Here's another place maybe we should not go:
"Vaccines Implicated in Rocketing Childhood Diabetes Rates"
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/04/05/mmr-implicated-in-rocketing-childhood-diabetes-rates/
"The Times, London reports Thousands of children revealed to be suffering 
from diabetes – The Times –  April 4, 2009, showing UK childhood diabetes 
rates are 15 times higher than previous figures. Childhood diabetes is 
listed as an adverse reaction to the US drug giant Merck’s MMR II and other 
vaccines  and highlights the issue of risk of disease compared to risk of 
adverse reactions. "

Although I tended to put that rise in Type-1 diabetes down to TV and junk 
food and sugar. But maybe it is something more?

They link to:
   "MERCK’S MMR II PRODUCT INFORMATION LEAFLET"
   http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf
"""
ADVERSE REACTIONS
The following adverse reactions are listed in decreasing order of severity, 
without regard to causality, within each body system category and have been 
reported during clinical trials, with use of the marketed  vaccine, or with 
use of monovalent or bivalent vaccine containing measles, mumps, or rubella:
...
Endocrine System
   Diabetes mellitus.
"""

The issue is not that vaccines cause stuff like Type-1 Diabetes; everyone 
apparently agrees they can do stuff like that if it is in the warning 
document few parents read. The issue is, how much do vaccines cause 
something like Type-1 Diabetes?

So, whose numbers do you believe on those rates? Does the medical community 
really want to know what the true rates are? That's what is at issue.

And, why does the medical community focus on preventing disease by 
vaccination, but not preventing it by good nutrition, or curing disease by 
vitamins and good nutrition? Could all that money spent on polio vaccine 
have been wasted, compared to spending it on good nutrition and vitamin-C 
treatments for those who got the disease? Well, there is little research 
about that. Wonder why?

And it doesn't have to be a conspiracy. Almost everyone involved means well.

Just like most people giving immunizations in Africa that spread AIDS no 
doubt meant well.

We need a way to turn all those well wishes into the best well deeds they 
can be. It's not clear to me that the current approach to vaccination is the 
best way to do that.

How can p2p help with this? Legitimacy is part of it, as you suggest. But, 
so is organizing the anecdotes.

The fact is, if Cuba was not vaccinating, I'd probably have little faith at 
all in vaccines. :-)

Of course, there is still the issue of short term benefits for long term 
losses. :-(
http://www.blythe-systems.com/pipermail/nytr/Week-of-Mon-20051226/029303.html
"An essential breakthrough in immunization that also shows the island´s
progress in genetic engineering is the recent development of a
tetravalent antigen that protects children against diphtheria,
tetanus, whooping cough and hepatitis."

Hmmm. Cuba, the USA's sworn enemy (as the USA sees it) just over the border 
practically. Masters of genetic engineering. Something about that worries 
me. :-) Although, who would be most likely to do something like that?

"U.S. needs quarantine to fight bio-plague threats"
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2009/05/06/US-needs-quarantine-to-fight-bio-plague-threats/UPI-87161241624934/
"Getting a plague started is tricky. It needs to achieve critical mass 
before it is detected. Mexico is just the petri dish that a 
fourth-generation war attacker wanting to destroy the United States would need."

Looks like we need to make the world work for everyone, and really fast. :-)
But, that was another point of the Triple Revolution memorandum from 1964:
   http://educationanddemocracy.org/FSCfiles/C_CC2a_TripleRevolution.htm
"""
The Weaponry Revolution: New forms of weaponry have been developed which 
cannot win wars but which can obliterate civilization. We are recognizing 
only now that the great weapons have eliminated war as a method for 
resolving international conflicts. The ever-present threat of total 
destruction is tempered by the knowledge of the final futility of war. The 
need of a “warless world” is generally recognized, though achieving it will 
be a long and frustrating process.
"""

The spread of computer viruses made by reckless teenagers suggests what will 
soon be possible for teenagers and molecular biology. Or at least college 
students:
   "University of Washington Bends Biosafety"
   http://www.greens.org/s-r/36/36-05.html
"""
The skyrocketing biodefense budget, now exceeding that of the Manhattan 
Project (adjusted for inflation), is rapidly increasing research on 
biological weapons agents, including risky genetic engineering projects. 
Despite this, the Bush administration maintains that comprehensive 
laboratory safety and disclosure law is unnecessary, because an alleged 
“culture of responsibility” among institutional biosafety committees will 
protect Americans, and the world, from its biodefense research.
"""

But, they're from the government, so they are here to help, right?

We should be *glad* that unhappy college students are only using guns on 
campus. Very glad. As sad as those tragedies are. How long will that choice 
of weapon last for spectacular college mass-murder/suicides?

Our ideology in the USA and elsewhere is completely out of touch with our 
technological possibilities. And, unfortunately, it seems much easier to 
destroy than create. We need to make it easier to create than destroy, IMHO.

Anyway, if you want to convince me about vaccination, maybe you should tout 
Cuba more? :-)
   http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2006/mayo/mar9/20vacuni.html
"DR. Lea Guido, representative of the Pan-American Health Organization 
(PAHO) in Cuba, praised the vaccination model developed in Cuba and affirmed 
that the rest of the world has much to learn from the island in the area of 
immunization."

Still:
   "Cuba suspends vaccination program after three children die"
   http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-87152110.html
"""
2002 JUN 19 - (NewsRx.com & NewsRx.net) -- Cuba announced May 30, 2002 it 
had suspended its measles vaccination program after an "uncommon accident" 
with imported vaccine dosages that left three children dead and 42 others 
sick. The three children died after receiving injections from "apparently 
contaminated" vials filled with the antimeasles vaccine manufactured in 
India. "After the accident was known, it was decided a week ago to stop the 
vaccinations under way across the country," the government said in a 
communique carried in the Communist Party daily ...
"""

Now, that has got to be a big security risk. Getting vaccines from abroad... 
Almost as bad as getting your vaccines from college kids or the Amish? :-)

Of course, one difference is that in Cuba, if your kid gets sick from a 
vaccine, presumably you can count on medical care for life, without a 
lawsuit and lots of paperwork and uncertainty, unlike the USA. Also, 
apparently in Cuba, when kids die from vaccines, they admit the problem and 
do something about it?

So, again, another case of the USA privatizing profits, but socializing 
risks, and smothering the whole thing in deceptive advertising? While 
forging right on ahead making weapons of mass destruction out of the 
technology. :-(

So, layers and layers of these issues...

--Paul Fernhout
http://www.pdfernhout.net/

Ryan Lanham wrote:
> You'll have to remind me what vaccinations have to do with AIDS in Africa.
> I was under the impression that sex caused it to spread and that eating the
> meat of primates was a probable cause.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Paul D. Fernhout <
> pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com> wrote:
> 
>> Still, I see you are sidestepping the issues of cost/effectiveness (thanks
>> Ed), creation of alternatives, and obvious cases where vaccination has
>> harmed millions of people in Africa by giving them AIDS. See, what kind of
>> an argument is it for something like vaccination when every time it goes
>> wrong it us just either ignored or just gets explained away as an anomaly?
>>
>