[p2p-research] shots in the dark/p2p article

Fri Oct 2 04:16:09 CEST 2009

I'm not suggesting we abandon science ... I diverge in the assessment that
chiropraxy and homeapathy and acupuncture don't work, there's lots of
evidence collected by scientists ... In most countries osteopaths,
homeopaths, are MD's, backed by research institutes and research; it's  like
in the legal system, if you're opponents are powerful enough, they will
always find a procedural flaw, no matter how much research you have ....
Homeopathy threatens the whole worldview of western science. I no longer
keep updated with these matters, but studied them rather deeply in my
thirties. The same truths hold, many studies show that it works, but the
studies cannot be accepted because the other side only accepts symptomatic
studies of mechanistic medicine. In the mean time, the more educated you
are, the more you use such medicines, while the fanatic adherents of
scientism keep denouncing free choice.

that we don't know 'why' they work is another issue, but a complex one ...
Acupuncture doesn't make sense to us, and neither does homeopathy .. so we
should study why it works, but also respectful if we don't know  ... it's
like the wikipedia, which according to conventional thinking, could not work
.. in this case, we adapt our theories to reality

For example, studies have shown that non-MD acupuncturist from Asia where
more effective than western MD's ...; another study showed homeopathic
doctors have much higher life expectancy than classicals ... Western
medicine heals some people, but also makes many people sick ... There are
tons of things wrong with it ...

Here in Asia, things are much simpler, people are pragmatic, and every
hospital offers a wide variety of choices ... (just like religion, here you
can mix and match, and the adherents of scientism are not much different
than the dualistic and fanatical fundamentalists in their approach that
there is only one truth) ... let the fanatics move to the US and write for
the pharma funded blogs I say, and leave us Europeans and Asians to be
healed the way we want,

Michel

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Michel,
>
> I am strongly for studying all sorts of modes of healing.  I know that we
> have complex mind/body interactions that are not at all understood.  I know
> the mind/brain is a complex place and the body is an extension of the mind.
>
> I am not closed to the prospect of unconventional cures.  I am simply
> skeptical.  One thing studying the social sciences has taught me that
> correlation isn't causality.  For most, correlation feels like causality.
> If I pray and get better, prayer caused it.  In fact, it probably didn't,
> but the sensemaking feels good.  The same thing happens in organizations
> with managers; we sensemake about correlation as causality.  Often (usually)
> it isn't upon deep investigation.
>
> I feel that if we abandon the idea of scientific causality, we become lost
> in a world of mysticism and fraud where nearly anything goes and progress
> isn't based on fact but on power.  So, it may hurt me to doubt complementary
> approaches, but I feel it is in the interest of the species and humanity to
> be science-based.  If homeopathy, etc. work(s), we ought to discover why and
> how. So far, there is no good evidence it works.  There are long-standing
> challenges to the entire field of chiropractory, for instance, that stand
> unanswered.  But if one believes "an out of place rib" can be corrected to
> remove pain, perhaps it can do so.  Does that make the chiropractor a
> healer...not in my book.
>
> Paul brought up the issue of placebo creep.  It is real and measureable.
> People are more cured by placebos now than they were 20 years ago.  Heaven
> knows the pharmaceutical industry has corruption and mal-intent far too
> often, but this is a serious medical problem...placebos are working too
> much.  People are prone to somatic responses.
>
> As an aside, I am highly doubtful of much of the training and knowledge
> management approaches used by US physicians--frankly I wouldn't trust one
> older than 50...unless I knew they regularly used the computer to research
> and to keep up with fast moving science.  I have been told by doctors that
> most of what they know is fully stale in 2-3 years on average (of course
> accepting basic anatomy, etc.).
>
> We are rapidly entering the age of genomic medicine.  One of my
> sister-in-laws is getting a stem cell transplant as I write (or did so a
> brief time ago at the Mayo Clinic.)  What is done now regularly was fantasy
> 10 years ago.  The University of Miami recently did a 9 organ transplant at
> once.  Science is uncovering the mechanics of various proteins every day.
> RNA science has move hugely in 10 years.  Most of that has yet to reach
> those who practice.  Same is true of nanotechnologies and nanodrug deliver
> mechanisms.
>  If you have a somatic illness, I recommend a somatic cure.  If you have
> an ailment where the mind is not causing distress, I recommend science.
>
> Ryan
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> There is a lot of scientific evidence supporting the possibility of
>> faith-based healing. For example, in Lourdes, there is a special office,
>> staffed by non-catholic doctors and with stringent procedures, including a
>> advocate of the devil .... They have documented several dozens of cases over
>> the years
>>
>> Of course, that doesn't mean it's the particular saint, and that he
>> 'really exists', but it does indicate that the body-mind has certain powers
>> which can be unlocked in certain circumstances ... (You may want to check
>> out the Future of the Body, by Michael Murphy, an extraordinary compendium
>> of proven above-average feats and abilities that have been scientifically
>> documented ...)
>>
>> The problem is that you cannot rely on it, it's a haphazard occurence and
>> cannot replace medicine ... but if you have faith, it's going to be a useful
>> adjunct ... My point is that it's best to have an open mind and to use both
>> scientific medicine (including homeopathy, osteopathy, herbal traditions and
>> acupuncture, which are all evidence-based, the problem is that their
>> theories don't fit, so they "can't be true" for those holding mechanistic
>> and symptom-oriented views of science) and non-traditional healers,
>> especially if dealing with grave illness.
>>
>>
>> My ex-wife had the Sudeck syndrome .. she went to many doctors and her leg
>> had become transparent ... after 6 weeks, the doctor put on a metal
>> contraption as the last step before amputation .. still no progress ... this
>> woke us up from our faith in that type of medicine and so we asked around to
>> find healers .... Her mother recommended a healer using photographs at a
>> distance ... I had zero belief in it, but we were desperate ... Over the
>> phone, he recommended a visual meditation regarding her leg ... That night,
>> the ulcers bursts, 2 days later, she was walking again, and the 4th day ...
>> she was dancing ...
>>
>> That healer provided a trigger I guess, which allowed the bodymind to
>> begin its own healing process
>>
>> By the way, I guess you know this, but there is a positive correlation
>> between the use of non-traditional medicine and educational levels ... the
>> higher education level, the more people rely on complementary medicine ...
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:25 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I have a brother who claims he has cured himself and others multiple
>>> times from intractable conditions with prayers to certain specific Catholic
>>> saints.  A prayer to that one won't work.  A prayer to this one will.  Who
>>> knows?  Scientists would doubt it.  He's certain.  At some juncture
>>> legitimacy is a personal issue.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 3:34 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> non-scientific sample,
>>>>
>>>>  - as a youth I had chronic sinusitis, asthmatic bronchities ... went to
>>>> dozens of "scientific doctors", tried vaccines, got tonnes of anti-biotics
>>>> and who knows what  ... nothing helped ... until I tried homeopathy in
>>>> despair ... after about 2 months it was gone and has remained so for the
>>>> rest of my life ...
>>>>
>>>> - I had to go to a long trekking in the mountains of Krete, and was
>>>> worried about both my mosquito phobia and a allergy to their bites (huge red
>>>> bubbles, extremely itchy), this had been a problem throughout my youth ...
>>>> my homeopath gave me a concoction ... what happened in Krete: my neighbours
>>>> average about 30-40  bites each night (yes, it was hell), I had 2-3  .. and,
>>>> the allergy was gone for ever ... to this day, mosquite bites only register
>>>> as tiny little dots ...
>>>>
>>>> If you go to the homeopathic associations, entirely staffted by
>>>> scientifically trained doctors by the way, they have dozens of big books
>>>> with thousands of pages of double bind studies ... there is only one
>>>> condition: you have to research with the philosophy of homeopathy in mind
>>>> (which is: no one medication per symptom, BUT one medication towards the
>>>> combination of sympton and individual characteristics ...). Of course, this
>>>> is something pharma research, based on another paradigm, steadfastly refuses
>>>> to do ... (little known fact, homeopathic doctors live about a half dozen
>>>> years longers than classical physicians ...)
>>>>
>>>> As for chiropraxy/osteopathy ...  if it is so bad, why are classic
>>>> physicians using it, but just changing the name ("manual theraphy"). The
>>>> truth is, if you have back pain, and you go to 'scientific doctors", they
>>>> will shot you through with medication and you'll end up at surgery, and
>>>> you'll be in pain for the rest of the life ... If that is the price you want
>>>> to pay to keep your faith in this type of science, good luck to you ... Or
>>>> if you are open to your own and others' experience and testimonies, and want
>>>> to get rid of your backpain, while improving your posture and overall health
>>>> .. well, welcome to the club ...
>>>>
>>>>   On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:20 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   Hi Paul...
>>>>>
>>>>> I am honestly not trying to pick fights, but again, homeopathy is
>>>>> probably the single issue after vaccines that keeps the physician
>>>>> bloggers busy.  They are ruthless is debunking its claims.  In third place
>>>>> is chiropractory.  To me the physicians' are compelling, but there are a lot
>>>>> of homeopathy users out there.  On the other hand, something like 15% of the
>>>>> US electorate wonders inconclusively if Obama is the anti-Christ.  So I'm
>>>>> not sure numbers make much of an argument in this case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ryan
>>>>>
>>>>>   "Successful Use of Homeopathy In Over 2.5 Million People Reported
>>>>>> From Cuba"
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> p2presearch mailing list
>>>>> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan Lanham
>>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>>  Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>>> P.O. Box 633
>>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>>> Cayman Islands
>>> (345) 916-1712
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
>> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
> Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/attachments/20091002/ec96fe8b/attachment-0001.html>