[p2p-research] shots in the dark/p2p article

Thu Oct 1 16:17:38 CEST 2009

Hi Michel,

I am strongly for studying all sorts of modes of healing.  I know that we
have complex mind/body interactions that are not at all understood.  I know
the mind/brain is a complex place and the body is an extension of the mind.

I am not closed to the prospect of unconventional cures.  I am simply
skeptical.  One thing studying the social sciences has taught me that
correlation isn't causality.  For most, correlation feels like causality.
If I pray and get better, prayer caused it.  In fact, it probably didn't,
but the sensemaking feels good.  The same thing happens in organizations
with managers; we sensemake about correlation as causality.  Often (usually)
it isn't upon deep investigation.

I feel that if we abandon the idea of scientific causality, we become lost
in a world of mysticism and fraud where nearly anything goes and progress
isn't based on fact but on power.  So, it may hurt me to doubt complementary
approaches, but I feel it is in the interest of the species and humanity to
be science-based.  If homeopathy, etc. work(s), we ought to discover why and
how. So far, there is no good evidence it works.  There are long-standing
challenges to the entire field of chiropractory, for instance, that stand
unanswered.  But if one believes "an out of place rib" can be corrected to
remove pain, perhaps it can do so.  Does that make the chiropractor a
healer...not in my book.

Paul brought up the issue of placebo creep.  It is real and measureable.
People are more cured by placebos now than they were 20 years ago.  Heaven
knows the pharmaceutical industry has corruption and mal-intent far too
often, but this is a serious medical problem...placebos are working too
much.  People are prone to somatic responses.

As an aside, I am highly doubtful of much of the training and knowledge
management approaches used by US physicians--frankly I wouldn't trust one
older than 50...unless I knew they regularly used the computer to research
and to keep up with fast moving science.  I have been told by doctors that
most of what they know is fully stale in 2-3 years on average (of course
accepting basic anatomy, etc.).

We are rapidly entering the age of genomic medicine.  One of my
sister-in-laws is getting a stem cell transplant as I write (or did so a
brief time ago at the Mayo Clinic.)  What is done now regularly was fantasy
10 years ago.  The University of Miami recently did a 9 organ transplant at
once.  Science is uncovering the mechanics of various proteins every day.
RNA science has move hugely in 10 years.  Most of that has yet to reach
those who practice.  Same is true of nanotechnologies and nanodrug deliver
mechanisms.
 If you have a somatic illness, I recommend a somatic cure.  If you have an
ailment where the mind is not causing distress, I recommend science.

Ryan
On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Ryan,
>
> There is a lot of scientific evidence supporting the possibility of
> faith-based healing. For example, in Lourdes, there is a special office,
> staffed by non-catholic doctors and with stringent procedures, including a
> advocate of the devil .... They have documented several dozens of cases over
> the years
>
> Of course, that doesn't mean it's the particular saint, and that he 'really
> exists', but it does indicate that the body-mind has certain powers which
> can be unlocked in certain circumstances ... (You may want to check out the
> Future of the Body, by Michael Murphy, an extraordinary compendium of proven
> above-average feats and abilities that have been scientifically documented
> ...)
>
> The problem is that you cannot rely on it, it's a haphazard occurence and
> cannot replace medicine ... but if you have faith, it's going to be a useful
> adjunct ... My point is that it's best to have an open mind and to use both
> scientific medicine (including homeopathy, osteopathy, herbal traditions and
> acupuncture, which are all evidence-based, the problem is that their
> theories don't fit, so they "can't be true" for those holding mechanistic
> and symptom-oriented views of science) and non-traditional healers,
> especially if dealing with grave illness.
>
>
> My ex-wife had the Sudeck syndrome .. she went to many doctors and her leg
> had become transparent ... after 6 weeks, the doctor put on a metal
> contraption as the last step before amputation .. still no progress ... this
> woke us up from our faith in that type of medicine and so we asked around to
> find healers .... Her mother recommended a healer using photographs at a
> distance ... I had zero belief in it, but we were desperate ... Over the
> phone, he recommended a visual meditation regarding her leg ... That night,
> the ulcers bursts, 2 days later, she was walking again, and the 4th day ...
> she was dancing ...
>
> That healer provided a trigger I guess, which allowed the bodymind to begin
> its own healing process
>
> By the way, I guess you know this, but there is a positive correlation
> between the use of non-traditional medicine and educational levels ... the
> higher education level, the more people rely on complementary medicine ...
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:25 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I have a brother who claims he has cured himself and others multiple times
>> from intractable conditions with prayers to certain specific Catholic
>> saints.  A prayer to that one won't work.  A prayer to this one will.  Who
>> knows?  Scientists would doubt it.  He's certain.  At some juncture
>> legitimacy is a personal issue.
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 3:34 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> non-scientific sample,
>>>
>>>  - as a youth I had chronic sinusitis, asthmatic bronchities ... went to
>>> dozens of "scientific doctors", tried vaccines, got tonnes of anti-biotics
>>> and who knows what  ... nothing helped ... until I tried homeopathy in
>>> despair ... after about 2 months it was gone and has remained so for the
>>> rest of my life ...
>>>
>>> - I had to go to a long trekking in the mountains of Krete, and was
>>> worried about both my mosquito phobia and a allergy to their bites (huge red
>>> bubbles, extremely itchy), this had been a problem throughout my youth ...
>>> my homeopath gave me a concoction ... what happened in Krete: my neighbours
>>> average about 30-40  bites each night (yes, it was hell), I had 2-3  .. and,
>>> the allergy was gone for ever ... to this day, mosquite bites only register
>>> as tiny little dots ...
>>>
>>> If you go to the homeopathic associations, entirely staffted by
>>> scientifically trained doctors by the way, they have dozens of big books
>>> with thousands of pages of double bind studies ... there is only one
>>> condition: you have to research with the philosophy of homeopathy in mind
>>> (which is: no one medication per symptom, BUT one medication towards the
>>> combination of sympton and individual characteristics ...). Of course, this
>>> is something pharma research, based on another paradigm, steadfastly refuses
>>> to do ... (little known fact, homeopathic doctors live about a half dozen
>>> years longers than classical physicians ...)
>>>
>>> As for chiropraxy/osteopathy ...  if it is so bad, why are classic
>>> physicians using it, but just changing the name ("manual theraphy"). The
>>> truth is, if you have back pain, and you go to 'scientific doctors", they
>>> will shot you through with medication and you'll end up at surgery, and
>>> you'll be in pain for the rest of the life ... If that is the price you want
>>> to pay to keep your faith in this type of science, good luck to you ... Or
>>> if you are open to your own and others' experience and testimonies, and want
>>> to get rid of your backpain, while improving your posture and overall health
>>> .. well, welcome to the club ...
>>>
>>>   On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:20 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>   Hi Paul...
>>>>
>>>> I am honestly not trying to pick fights, but again, homeopathy is
>>>> probably the single issue after vaccines that keeps the physician
>>>> bloggers busy.  They are ruthless is debunking its claims.  In third place
>>>> is chiropractory.  To me the physicians' are compelling, but there are a lot
>>>> of homeopathy users out there.  On the other hand, something like 15% of the
>>>> US electorate wonders inconclusively if Obama is the anti-Christ.  So I'm
>>>> not sure numbers make much of an argument in this case.
>>>>
>>>> Ryan
>>>>
>>>>   "Successful Use of Homeopathy In Over 2.5 Million People Reported
>>>>> From Cuba"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ryan Lanham
>> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>>  Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
>> P.O. Box 633
>> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
>> Cayman Islands
>> (345) 916-1712
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Ryan Lanham
rlanham1963 at gmail.com
Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
P.O. Box 633
Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
Cayman Islands
(345) 916-1712
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