[p2p-research] P2P Carbon trading - stage one

Fri Nov 20 08:49:32 CET 2009

Hi Robin,

I would welcome comments from different perspectives, we still need to be
educated on the issue here I think, so December is fine if you have time
then.

I'm copying James Quilligan, about your interpretation that his commons
poster follows a neoliberal agenda. I'm surmising he will strongly dispute
that,

Michel

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Robin <robokow at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday 18 November 2009 15:30:59 Michel Bauwens wrote:
> > Hi robin,
> >
> > if you have time, I would appreciate an overview for our blog, 'what to
> > think of carbon trading',
>
> I would love to, but it isn't easy generally to write "what to think of
> carbon
> trading". There are many angles to it, and it really depends on the values
> and
> priorities someone adheres to. Do you want to think within or outside the
> system? Do you want to think of a way out of the system (transition) or a
> way
> that neglects the current system completely ;)
>
> First there is the already put in place de facto privatisation of the right
> to
> pollute that already occured with the Kyoto Protocol, and the way the EU
> for
> example implemented this. This de facto privatisation could, arguably, be
> perceived as a legally approved new implementation of colonialism (but this
> would also depend on further outcomes of the Climate Protocol processes and
> how individual states would continue to implement carbon trading)
>
> Then there is another angle to it. This is related to the way markets and
> money currently function. I can imagine there would be other ways of
> dealing
> with carbon trading on a P2P level, if the rules of the games would be set
> up
> differently in relation to how it is delt with currently.
>
> To that end, I think it would be useful for James Burke to reflect a bit
> more
> about the poster he uploaded here:
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-emergence-of-commons-trusts-as-policy-
> framework/2009/11/16<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-emergence-of-commons-trusts-as-policy-%0Aframework/2009/11/16>
>
> He makes a distinction between "cap and trade" for "private sector" and
> "carbon taxes" for "Public sector", which frankly follows the green/social
> democratic neoliberal agenda. I would love to see an elaboration of that.
>
> I might have time to write something in December. At the moment I am busy
> organising a nomad conference first in Berlin and then New York that starts
> tomorrow. I have a piece of writing for that, which I was hoping to send
> later
> today.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Robin
>
>
>
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Robin <robokow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Interesting spam here. I think you can expect more like this.
> > >
> > > I have done extensive research on carbon trading when it was just
> > > starting, early 2000s and published a bunch of articles in Dutch
> > > press, including the main business newspaper.
> > >
> > > For anyone interested in this sort of material, find some critical
> > > info here: http://www.carbontradewatch.org/
> > >
> > > Personally I think that if you want to commodify the air/ or the
> > > 'right to pollute', it would only make sense if each person in the
> > > world would get an equal right to Co2 emission, based on what is
> > > sustainable (around 90% less than what we pollute now). Fair
> > > distribution you might call it. Then, let the trading begin (and the
> > > money flows North to South).
> > >
> > > But unfortunately the allocation per state has (already!) been done
> > > with the trade-agreement Kyoto Protocol, on basis of how much each
> > > (Northern) state was polluting already.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:24 AM, J. Andrew Rogers
> > >
> > > <reality.miner at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > One thing that makes me highly skeptical of most carbon offset sites
> is
> > >
> > > that
> > >
> > > > there never seems to be a way for normal individuals that have
> > >
> > > substantial
> > >
> > > > carbon sequestration capacity to sell offsets.  At the end of the
> day,
> > > > it always seems to be about funneling money to anointed parties
> rather
> > > > than creating a genuine market for carbon sequestration.
> > >
> > > Carbon offset projects can also damage communities. There are many
> > > examples of this:
> > >
> > >
> http://www.carbontradewatch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id
> > >=319&Itemid=36
> > >
> > > >From the conclusion of the article linked above:
> > >
> > > "The emerging global carbon offset market has created a lucrative new
> > > commodity while essentially distracting from the real and difficult
> > > steps needed to avert the climate crisis. In hundreds of locations
> > > around the world, polluting private companies are building up new
> > > profit centres to capture green finance. These carbon projects are
> > > subsidizing some of the most polluting companies in the world.
> > >
> > > The reality of these projects is startling. Even renewable projects
> > > that look the best at the outset are rife with conflicts. A brief look
> > > at market fundamentals suggests why such conflicts are almost
> > > inevitable. The most reliable providers of offset credits will
> > > inevitably be big, highly-capitalized firms or agencies in a position
> > > to hire carbon consultants and accountants, liaise with officials, or
> > > pay the fees needed for UN registration.
> > >
> > > These projects are not set up to deal with the real complexities and
> > > intricacies of communities and livelihoods. They require enormous
> > > quantities of resources in terms of land, water, and machinery and do
> > > not benefit the local communities or ecology. They generally take
> > > place in regions where people have little political power, engendering
> > > a deeper North–South divide."
> > >
> > > Robin
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Life happens at the level of events, not of words
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
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