[p2p-research] Building Alliances (basic income and entrepreneurship)

Sun Nov 8 07:55:36 CET 2009

I've thought a bit further about this.

I'm obviously uncomfortable with a style of debate that systematically
delegitimizes critique. So this list no longer works for me, and I'm going
to take a break from it.

I'm not saying it is not okay to make extraordinary claims, but using
authority arguments in such a systematic way is offensive to what I think a
list culture should be.

I was okay with pluralism, within the boundary that being on the list means
that one generally agrees that one supports peer to peer and the more
equitable means of production and expression. I would also be okay with
exceptional contributions making the opposite point of view, that we need
more concentrations of wealth. But I'm not okay when that is associated with
dogmatic assertions and a refusal to entertain different viewpoints and
routine dismissals of scholars who think differently.

I would have hoped that list moderators would have seen it the same way, but
obviously that does not seem to be the case. This is the list of everybody,
so I hope that you continue learning and debating in this new style.

Michel

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:

> what anonymous source, why is Setzer anonymous??
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:41 AM, Stan Rhodes <stanleyrhodes at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Michel,
>>
>> This needs to stop.  Period.
>>
>> I am offended you would quote some anonymous source as some sort of
>> authority, weaving it into a quick hit-piece.
>>
>> You do not understand what Andrew is saying in nearly every email, and he
>> attempts to tell you that, but you will not listen.    Although I have a few
>> very minor quibbles with what he said, all he said is not controversial to
>> me, with my limited knowledge of cognitive science.
>>
>> If you know another cognitive scientist, let him or her join the
>> discussion reasonably with full visibility.  So much for honest debate...
>>
>> -- Stan
>>
>>   On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>   Hi Andrew,
>>>
>>> I just forwarded the text of another scientist, which shows how vacuous
>>> your claim for absolute truth is,
>>>
>>> I"m really sorry, but your methods are so much worse than even magical
>>> thinking, and can only lead to grave disasters for mankind. Humans are
>>> neither purely animals nor machines, but complex entities with emergent
>>> behaviour. In fact, there is no more magical thinking that the double claim
>>> that 1) science and math are the only ways of knowing; and 2) that your
>>> individual interpretation of math and science is the only valid one. This
>>> absolute certainty equates with absolute disaster. It's a good reminder of
>>> why democracy is so necessary to keep totalitarian approaches in check. Your
>>> claim that humans are just computers and therefore machines, are in fact
>>> extremist interpretations, not generally shared by the scientific community.
>>> I'm not surprised that it is associated with a call for more concentration
>>> of wealth as a guarantee for more innovation, and that you ignore the
>>> studies showing how more concentrated capital has actually hurt innovation
>>> in Silicon Valley. But don't let trival things as facts stand in the way of
>>> your certainties.
>>>
>>> I'm not surprised that you are unwilling to submit your claims to a body
>>> of scientists,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:52 AM, J. Andrew Rogers <
>>> reality.miner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > The statement that the brain is just a computer, is highly
>>>> controversial,
>>>> > even in science, but I'm not going to claim your ignorant of that, but
>>>> you
>>>> > probably choose to simply ignore it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but it is only controversial to you, you just choose to ignore
>>>> the mountains of evidence.
>>>>
>>>> There is no measure by which a brain does not have the precise
>>>> properties you would predict for a fairly conventional finite
>>>> computer.  If you have evidence to the contrary, please publish it.
>>>> You would be famous.
>>>>
>>>> Why would we believe in something that is contrary to all evidence?
>>>> Even if it *was* incorrect, it would be a safe scientific claim
>>>> because there is no contrary evidence to date.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Humans and groups are indeed predictable to a certain degree, more
>>>> than
>>>> > people realize, but not absolutely and without limit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure, and the mathematical properties of this fact are well understood.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > I would like to make a bet.
>>>> >
>>>> > You state on the Edge, that the brain is just a computer, and if
>>>> you're
>>>> > right about the state of science, there should be absolutely no
>>>> reaction on
>>>> > discussion on it, since it is an obvious truth.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seriously, this isn't even an interesting topic.  It is settled
>>>> science except for people unfamiliar with or unwilling to give up
>>>> their magical thinking.  It is the same reason I don't engage in
>>>> arguments about creationism versus evolution, there is no margin in it
>>>> even among educated folk.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>  J. Andrew Rogers
>>>> realityminer.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
> http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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