[p2p-research] Building Alliances

Fri Nov 6 19:48:27 CET 2009

regarding speenlanham, there are many interesting chapters in polanyi's, the
great transformation, which I really really recommend as a must read for
everyone on this list,

see
http://www.bing.com/search?q=polanyi+great+transition+speenhamland&form=QBRE&filt=all

as far as I remember though, he argues that it had to be destroyed, as the
early bourgeois class hated it as subsidising idleness, and he shows,
capitalism was not possible without making labour marketable as well, so it
is the destruction of that system which created the basis for UK 19th
capitalist growth (however, painful it was for the working classes of that
century),

I think the opposite also holds true, if basic income would be implemented,
by removing hard labour from the current market power relationships, it
would require a fundamentally different society, which is indeed why it
works as a 'transition plan',

which also explains the opposition to its implementation ... I think the
system can live with stealth basic income, which leaves the labor market
dynamics seemingly intact, but much more difficultly with a real and open
basic income, as it would be a fundamental challenge to its logic,

Michel

On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Phoebe:
>
> I personally like the idea of guaranteed income as a transition plan.  I
> see little difference between the categories you list for justification of
> such a system, but I'm sure the authors mentioned go into it at length.  The
> Speenhamland System was the basis for a joke on my last name when I was in
> grad school.  I never thought I'd encounter it again.  It was
> innovative--some would say the first true welfare system.  I'm told by
> Nordic folks that they had earlier systems of that sort long predating
> English poor laws.  The US didn't really move in this direction as a state
> until the Progressive Era.  Typically, the abatement of poverty was more P2P
> in the sense that churches handled it.
>
> In general, a true Speenhamland type system (though its implementation was
> far from perfect and was typically corrupt) would be a great way to
> introduce the sort of robotic utopia that people like Paul F. here envision
> occurring over the next 30 years or so.  Personally, I am always interested
> in transition systems.  People can see an end point and can agree where we
> are, the tough part in my policy discussions is envisioning A-->B.  That is
> the major area where I am interested in P2P. I wonder about how systems move
> from here to there.  Most here, I think it is fair to say, see a path
> through a sort of socialism/communism.  I do not.  Kevin, as I understand
> it, sees the evolution of a stateless society--which of course would be
> radically different than a communist/socialist system.  People like Paul and
> I suppose myself see the evolution of a technocracy/utopia where
> institutions dissolve (like Kevin's view) but are replaced by large-scale
> thinking networks.
>
> Best,
>
> Ryan
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Phoebe <pvm.doc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi!!
>>
>> 'Presenting a Case for Guaranteed Income and its Advantages'
>>
>> Lynn Chancer has asked the question--one that has been on people's minds
>> not least since the Speenhamland Law: why guarantee income? 'Are the
>> benefits of this notion only that it is redolent of a broader concept of
>> entitlement, or are there reasons to advocate this particular policy over
>> full employment or other strategies focussed on jobs'?
>>
>> The case for a guaranteed income falls into four categories of advantage:
>> practical
>> moral/ethical
>> political
>> psychic/libidinal
>>
>> Cosma Orsi presents his ideas on the Partner State and basic income (not
>> only here but this is one paper):
>>
>>
>> http://www.ruc.dk/upload/application/pdf/f51d6748/Research%20report%204_2005%20Cosma%20Orsi.pdf
>>
>> Also see Robert Theobald, The Guaranteed Income (Doubleday & Co. 1966)
>> including Erich Fromm's 'The Psychological Aspects of the Guaranteed Income'
>> in this text; Stanley Aronowitz and Jonathan Cutler, Post-Work (Routledge
>> 1998)...
>>
>> In terms of cultural spaces and social improvement, see Joshua Cohen and
>> Joel Rogers, What's Wrong with a Free Lunch? (Beacon Press, 2001) and Steve
>> Shafarman, Healing Politics: Citizen Policies and the Pursuit of
>> Happiness (Xlibris, 2000).
>> ...
>>
>> Yours, Phoebe
>>
>> 2009/11/6 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>
>>  HI Kevin,
>>>
>>> I absolutely agree that you have the right intuition here, and that this
>>> is a very fruitful way to argue for partner state models regarding 'free
>>> cultural spaces'.
>>>
>>> Perhaps phoebe has encountered such arguments in her labour research?
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Kevin Flanagan <kev.flanagan at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey Paul,
>>>>
>>>> State support for the arts is common in europe.
>>>> Im most familiar with the Irish and UK Arts Councils.
>>>> Im not advocating further state support for 'artists'.
>>>> Im interested in putting together an strong argument for state support
>>>> for free culture and hacker spaces.
>>>> Using already in place institutions and infrastructure such as arts
>>>> councils.
>>>> I support the idea of a basic income for all.
>>>> But Im suggesting what I see as a practical and achievable short term
>>>> goal.
>>>> If we could specifically get these institutions to recognise the
>>>> social value and put in policy the importance of commons oriented
>>>> production for free culture and hacker spaces then maybe in time we
>>>> can get the state to recognize the value and importance of commons
>>>> based production on a broader scale.
>>>> Lets get these arts councils to expand their remit to support
>>>> specifically free culture and hacker spaces.
>>>> Surely we can show how the skills developed in hack labs are useful
>>>> and transferable and worth state economic investment. Hacker spaces in
>>>> in disadvantaged communities could be a great outlet for young people.
>>>> I dont have time to look up a good links at the moment because I have to
>>>> go now.
>>>> For example it would be nice to see some research on how Brazil has
>>>> got on with its effort in supporting acces to digital technology.
>>>> Brazilian minister for digital culture Gilberto Gill supporting the
>>>> creation of 650 cultural spaces giving citizens access to computers
>>>> cameras to share music and culture.
>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9786370-7.html
>>>>
>>>> Ok Im off for now.
>>>>
>>>> Kevin F
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Paul D. Fernhout
>>>> <pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com> wrote:
>>>>  > Kevin-
>>>> >
>>>> > As I see it, more support for the arts is a good idea, but a
>>>> half-measure.
>>>> > As you say at the end, we could look at expanding it to all sorts of
>>>> commons
>>>> > production, but it is hard to judge what is "worthy". A "basic income"
>>>> for
>>>> > all is probably a better general solution than trying to decide what
>>>> > projects a person wants to do are worthy of support. References:
>>>> >  http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html
>>>> >  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
>>>> >  http://www.usbig.net/whatisbig.html
>>>> >
>>>> > A basic income just for "artists" is possible:
>>>> >  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_in_the_Netherlands
>>>> > but in the end, is a mother or father any less an artist for helping
>>>> sculpt
>>>> > a young life than someone who works in clay and sculpts statues? And,
>>>> it is
>>>> > hard to judge a person's worth or a project's worth at the time. It
>>>> may only
>>>> > become clear 1000 years later if something is "worthwhile". And
>>>> besides,
>>>> > worthwhile to whom? Maybe it is enough that an individual's life is
>>>> > worthwhile to themselves?
>>>> >
>>>> > For me, a big changeover point is if everyone could get laws about a
>>>> basic
>>>> > income passed everywhere. So, rather than have artists fighting
>>>> against
>>>> > mothers and fathers and mimes and songwriters and so on over who
>>>> should get
>>>> > the most subsidies, we have both working together, as an alliance, to
>>>> have a
>>>> > basic income for artists, mothers, fathers, writers, journalists,
>>>> mimes, and
>>>> > everyone else, even rich CEOs.
>>>> >
>>>> > It's been said:
>>>> >  http://quotationsbook.com/quote/31495/
>>>> > "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the
>>>> poor, to
>>>> > sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread. "
>>>> >
>>>> > Well, a basic income, in its majestic equality, allows both the rich
>>>> as well
>>>> > as the poor to paint local bridges, to mime in the streets, and to
>>>> give away
>>>> > home-baked bread. :-) Maybe financially obese people won't want to do
>>>> those
>>>> > things compared to poor people who know how important those things
>>>> are, but
>>>> > with a basic income, rich people could. :-)
>>>> >
>>>> > See also:
>>>> > "[p2p-research] Basic income from a millionaire's perspective?"
>>>> >
>>>> http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-August/003949.html
>>>> >
>>>> > Is it possible you could make some freely licensed art about that
>>>> issue? :-)
>>>> >
>>>> > --Paul Fernhout
>>>> > http://www.pdfernhout.net/
>>>> >
>>>> > Kevin Flanagan wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hello,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It was great to finally get to meet some of you in person at media
>>>> >> ecologies.
>>>> >> I have some suggestions and questions regarding building alliances
>>>> >> that Id be interested in thrashing out here on the list.
>>>> >> My question here is how can we incentivize government to support the
>>>> >> building and protection of the commons?
>>>> >> My suggestion is this -
>>>> >> As an artist Ive been involved in and worked with several artist led
>>>> >> organisations. Most of these organisations could not survive without
>>>> >> government subsidy through bodies such as arts councils. Naturally
>>>> >> there is pressure from government on arts councils and hence on
>>>> >> artists and arts organisations to be accountable for this investment.
>>>> >> In order to receive financial support artists and arts organisations
>>>> >> are required to fulfill certain criteria to prove the social value of
>>>> >> their work. So the better an organisation is at proving the social
>>>> >> value of their work the more likely it is that they will receive
>>>> >> support. This means that lots of artists end up working to
>>>> governments
>>>> >> agenda through Public Art and Community Arts projects. Maybe this
>>>> >> sounds a bit harsh but sometimes I think of community arts as a kind
>>>> >> of goverment funded social band aid for disadvantaged communities.
>>>> The
>>>> >> criteria for funding are usually that such projects support , social
>>>> >> inclusion, multiculturalism, intercultural relations. Often what is
>>>> >> produced in the creative process if immaterial affect so its not
>>>> >> always easy to show how these arts projects fulfill these criteria.
>>>> >> What Im wondering is can free culture centers, hack\fab labs, maker
>>>> >> clubs, do this better. I think so. The added advantage of such
>>>> centres
>>>> >> is eductaion in transferable skills. Goverment likes transferable
>>>> >> skills that help peoples job prospects. Whether in electronics,
>>>> >> programming, media. Some research into how the EU and UNESCO promote
>>>> >> social inclusion through culture would be useful. Are these policies
>>>> >> IP biased? Can we as advocates of free culture and the commons
>>>> propose
>>>> >> ammendments or new policies that incentivize governments to provide
>>>> >> financial support for free culture spaces, hack labs and to recognize
>>>> >> the intercultural importance of the shared commons oriented
>>>> production
>>>> >> of these spaces? Any ideas who might already be working on this?
>>>> >> Existing models perhaps that can be used as examples?
>>>> >> How might dialogue about the commons interface with current thinking
>>>> >> on multiculturalism? Does breaking down financial barriers to entry
>>>> >> promote social inclusion locally, nationally, internationally? Of
>>>> >> course but how do we measure this?
>>>> >> I dont know how this sounds or even if its interesting but I thought
>>>> >> Id just put it out there.
>>>> >> Maybe the the current system of support for the arts is one to look
>>>> at
>>>> >> expanding for supporting the commons based production? Maybe
>>>> alliances
>>>> >> can be built with existing cultural organisations?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Best
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Kevin F
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> p2presearch mailing list
>>>> >> p2presearch at listcultures.org
>>>> >>
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>> Research: http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
>>> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Employment profile: http://www.espach.salford.ac.uk/page/Phoebe_Moore
>>
>> JCEPS--my recent article: UK Education, Employability and Everyday Life
>> http://www.jceps.com/index.php?pageID=article&articleID=151
>>
>> Media Ecologies workshop, Nov 2009, Manchester
>> http://www.espach.salford.ac.uk/sssi/p2p/index.html
>>
>> Manchester Film Cooperative: http://www.manchesterfilm.coop/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ryan Lanham
> rlanham1963 at gmail.com
>  Facebook: Ryan_Lanham
> P.O. Box 633
> Grand Cayman, KY1-1303
> Cayman Islands
> (345) 916-1712
>
>
>
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Research:
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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