[p2p-research] excellent contribution on flow money by Martien van Steenbergen

[Martien van Steenbergen]

Hi Ryan,

On 27 May 2009, at 18:08 , Ryan Lanham wrote:

> Martien:
>
> I cannot imagine, even under extreme crisis, a democratic move to  
> change money and finance in the extraordinary ways you suggest.   
> Therefore, I cannot imagine a feasible path to implementation.

I never said or maybe hinted that it would be democratic. If I did, or  
created the perception, please forgive me. That said, I also do not  
say that is will not happen in a democratic way. In fact, I have no  
idea how it will happen, but it will, and I will live to witness it  
(and hopefully contribute to it in one way or another).

> If it is anti-democratic, it fails of its own roots.  If it is to be  
> a democratic change,

Would love to see it happen in a holocratic way. For me, holocracy ==  
sociocracy + agilism.

> there will need to be specific proofs that such changes lead to  
> desired outcomes as well as the necessary cataclysms to convince  
> people to consider such changes.

Yes! Fully agree. That is why we need simulations and smaller scale  
experiments. And mathematicians and complexity experts and ecosophists  
and biologists, to name a few. Perhaps a new country with a population  
of one million or so, to be run as a open source lab. The pearls (just  
like the patterns in a pattern language) cultivated there can be  
picked up by others at will, as soon as they see and feel fit. That  
they may be educed.

It's also the reason that I've developed and evolved de Serious Funny  
Money Game, since experiencing, feeling and observing different  
systems is so eye-opening. Playing it on all levels in the power  
pyramid will create awareness and makes people ponder. The majority of  
people is still unaware, unknowing.

Perhaps we, as a p2p foundation, can find proof in nature (external  
evidence) for the things you are looking for en mimic that.

To quote  Donella H. Meadows: “Systems folks would say one way to  
change a paradigm is to model a system, which takes you outside the  
system and forces you to see it whole. We say that because our own  
paradigms have been changed that way.”

> P2P is widely in use today.  There is nothing about it that requires  
> radical social change or radical systematic procedural change.  It  
> quite happily co-exists for the most part in Germany, Mexico,  
> Africa, the US, China and Sri Lanka with very little systematic  
> differences.  Indeed the commons of most of those places are  
> international.
>
> I see nothing in P2P, even in alternative currencies, that suggests  
> radical systematic change--rather they are peacefully co-existing  
> systems with straightforward open membership where people opt in  
> willingly and in great numbers.

We agree to disagree here. Fine with me. Time will tell. Wanna bet?

> Are you moving from the democratic, evolutionary to the anti- 
> democratic revolutionary?

Nope. To the holacratic. Revolution may be needed, but is definitely  
not my preference.

Holacracy gives the option to pick whatever ‘cracy’, depending on  
situation: democracy, autocracy, sociocracy, adhocracy. Pick the cracy  
best suited for the situation.

> Surely anti-democratic revolutionary ideas cannot be justified  
> morally in any legitimate movement of today.

Hmmm... anti-democratic not perhaps, but revolutionary? I see no  
problem with that. It doesn't imply violence per sé. To me, it just  
more radical.

Again, I'm not anti-demcratic or revolutionary or anti-revolutionary.  
I am pro heal the Earth.

Some things do need hard decision and bring on collateral damage.  
Triage goals to minimize that, but it cannot always be prevented if  
you want to maximize the number of survivors and their health.  
Survivors include man, nature and our planet.

Also, just like a caterpillar metamorfoses to a butterfly, I see our  
globe metamorfose in a similar way. And in that process, caterpillar  
and butterfly each fight each other for live or death. One system  
makes way, althoug very reluctantly, for the other. It is a bloody  
fight. All the events and symptoms we're now witnessing strenghten  
this observation. But look at the results! Wonderful, right?!

> And what leader is going to propose untested radical systematic  
> changes unless they have acceded to some form of authoratarian/ 
> totalitarianism--like a Chavez in Venezuela--whose economy is  
> crumbling at a tremendous rate versus surrounding nations--his rate  
> of foreign exchange reserves expenditure exceeds virtually any other  
> nation, as one example.

If only we would know. The situation at hand will educe and evoke the  
leader required to do the job. Leader will rise and fall. Quicker,  
higher, and deeper.

Better be a wise, ethical leader. One who goes before and shows the  
way by example.

Let's help each other find this woman or man.

Any suggestions? (Chavez probly not, right?)

Succes en plezier,

Martien.