[p2p-research] excellent contribution on flow money by Martien van Steenbergen

[Martien van Steenbergen]

Hi Ryan,

Prepare for a bloody battle, one way or the other. Unless a few  
enlightened leaders have the guts and power and diplomacy and humanism  
to pull it off (Obama? others?).

Or, better still, someone somewher just unleashes some viral software  
or service exemplifying the traits we discuss on the web that catches  
on like wildfire; just like the phone, radio, tv, fax, internet,  
email, the web, blogs/rss, wiki, twitter, what's next...

We need to include and transcend. Not throw the baby away with the  
bathwater.

To the benefit of all. With the least amount of destruction, and  
triage when needed.

Financial engineering, yes. Economy as a science? Not quite yet. New  
paths.

Succes en plezier,

Martien.

On 27 May 2009, at 17:01 , Ryan Lanham wrote:

> By what authority will you create and remove traits of money?   
> Through the state?  How will this occur?  Do you see people  
> democratically choosing to destroy the prospect of wealth formation,  
> holding financial assets, etc?  This is larger as a portion of  
> global wealth (by far) than physical production.  Massively so.   
> We've had almost 6 centuries of financial engineering since the  
> earliest serious banking operations.  Will all this human effort be  
> simply destroyed?  To whose benefit?  By what proof?
>
> I agree to the trial so long as everyone who is an advocate goes and  
> lives in the first place that tries it.
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Martien van Steenbergen <Martien at aardrock.com 
> > wrote:
>
> On 26 May 2009, at 19:38 , Dmytri Kleiner wrote:
>
> On Tue, 26 May 2009, Ryan Lanham wrote:
>
>
>     The reasons people "own" money is that we store consumption
>     until when it is advantageous.
> Yes, that is one of the most useful traits of money: it abstracts  
> trade from
> time and space. That is, you don't have to trade 3 chickens for a  
> ham at the
> exact time and place, you can sell your chicks and buy something  
> else from
> someone else at some place and some time. Let's keep that trait.
>
>
> This is one the most destructive traits of money, real wealth can not
> be stored at no cost, or actually negative cost (positive interest),  
> to the owner. Such a form of wealth can only extend from granted  
> privilege, most likely enforced by state violence.
>
> This feature of money, money as a store of value, is esentially a
> transfer of wealth from future producers to current owners.
>
> This theft of future value from it's producers is among the sources of
> the great inequality of the world, and any form of exchange based on  
> the
> ability to "store" consumption at no loss or risk would perpetuate  
> inequality.
>
> Fully agree with you, provided you are talking about a money system  
> that supports the saving function.
>
> Please also see my previous email.
>
>
>
> That is why Gessellian "friegelti," i.e. stamp scrip, has demmurrage  
> (negative interest) as a feature.
>
> Right! ‘Flow money’, or ‘stroomgeld’ in Dutch, or ‘demurrage’ in  
> French. A.k.a. as liquidity tax, but I dislike the word.
>
>
> I'm jumping in late, so appologies if this has already been covered.
>
> Please continue to contribute in anyway you like.
>
> I tend to be very definite, but I know nothing for sure. So each and  
> every rebuttal that does not kill it, makes it stronger.
>
>
> Succes en plezier,
>
> Martien.
>
>
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